Jackson

[Buzzooka Joe]

Either way he will know after this weekend where he truly stands. Him and all 70 participants.
If the Jazz did somehow promise Frank a first round pick at thirty. Wonder who goes.

If the Jazz promised him a 1st round pick, then the GM needs to go.. because Utah also has the 42nd pick in the draft, and they won't have annnny problem getting Frank then.. they could use that 1st round pick to actually get a 1st round caliber pick.

 

[jwill133]

Lol. Wtf??

Shelvin Mack nearly beat us in the Natty title in 2010. With 5+ years of NBA experience after his college career, yes I believe that an 18 year old Frank would get absolutely throttled by Shelvin right now.

The original comment about Frank being better right now than the Jazz's point guards was absurd. And I'm going to assume that comment was made due to watching 1 playoff game of the Jazz against possibly the greatest basketball team ever assembled.

 

[Dattier]

Shelvin Mack nearly beat us in the Natty title in 2010. With 5+ years of NBA experience after his college career, yes I believe that an 18 year old Frank would get absolutely throttled by Shelvin right now.

The original comment about Frank being better right now than the Jazz's point guards was absurd. And I'm going to assume that comment was made due to watching 1 playoff game of the Jazz against possibly the greatest basketball team ever assembled.

Mack nearly beat us? That's a weird way to put it. He didn't have that great a game, but even then, it would be one game.

People claiming Frank is a likely 1st round pick are pretty... off. You don't have to go overboard in the other direction to make your point that he'd be better served to return to school.

 

[Mac9192]

Most people that post here say K plays the people that give team best chance to win. My opinion is Jackson should have been point guard all season. I know Matt Jones is a popular player, and yes I am glad he played for Duke. But in my opinion, there's no comparison talent wise between him and Jackson. Had Jackson been the running the point all season, and not Allen, this discussion on him going pro or not wouldn't be much of one. The kid can play. He's athletic, has good range, and can create his own shot. He has more positives than negatives. He has what you can't teach. I would love for him to come back to Duke, but that's because he would help Duke win.

 

[jwill133]

Mack nearly beat us? That's a weird way to put it. He didn't have that great a game, but even then, it would be one game.

People claiming Frank is a likely 1st round pick are pretty... off. You don't have to go overboard in the other direction to make your point that he'd be better served to return to school.

Shelvin had 12 points and was tied with Hayward as Butler's leading scorer against us. He also led them to the championship game the following year, without Hayward. I played AAU basketball with Shelvin so of course I gotta defend my guy.

Maybe I did go a bit overboard on the original comment that Frank was better than the Jazz's PG's. I do get highly irritated by people who don't seem to grasp the thought that the NBA game is played at a much much higher level than the college game.

On top of that...Duke is coming off the most dissapointing season I can ever recall, we just lost a recruiting battle to UK, the NBA playoffs have been awful...so yea maybe I am a little irritable right now.

 

[Dattier]

...K was loyal to Matt...

No, he was not just "loyal" to Matt. Matt brought leadership, defense, communication, and chemistry to it that freshmen don't often have. When you characterize it as loyalty -- mere loyalty, blind and stubborn loyalty -- you aren't showing much respect for K, Matt, or Frank.

Most people that post here say K plays the people that give team best chance to win... But in my opinion, there's no comparison talent wise between him and Jackson.

You recognize those aren't always the same thing, right?

 

[Mac9192]

No, he was not just "loyal" to Matt. Matt brought leadership, defense, communication, and chemistry to it that freshmen don't often have. When you characterize it as loyalty -- mere loyalty, blind and stubborn loyalty -- you aren't showing much respect for K, Matt, or Frank.


You recognize those aren't always the same thing, right?

Never said Matt shouldn't have played, but no doubt Jackson isn't better than Matt. Surely a man of your obvious intelligence can see this. I said it was my opinion. None of us agree with what K does 100% of the time, and this is one of those times I disagree with him. Jackson, in my opinion, didn't like the playing time situation, and probably felt he should have been starting the whole season. Then add in recruiting of Duval, and he feels his sophomore season would be like his freshman. That's just my opinion, we all have them. But just because I disagree with Coach K doesn't mean I don't respect him.

 

[hart2chesson]

I said it before and will say it again, like the previous poster I feel theres no question in the difference in talent level between Jackson and Jones. Would loved to have had Frank,Grayson and Luke at the 1-2-3 all year w/Matt spelling these guys off bench...Just my thoughts... OFC

 

[jwill133]

Sign me up on the team that believed Matt should have started all year and Frank should have came off the bench beginning of the year, by February Grayson should have came off the bench.

We started Luke Kennard, who was probably the best offensive player in the country but a big liability on defense. Tatum also struggled big time defensively until the end of the year, when he did eventually become a stud on that end. Grayson and Frank weren't exactly defensive stoppers either.

We needed a defensive first guy starting, we had plenty of offense. We needed offensive firepower off the bench.

 

[Mac9192]

Sign me up on the team that believed Matt should have started all year and Frank should have came off the bench beginning of the year, by February Grayson should have came off the bench.

We started Luke Kennard, who was probably the best offensive player in the country but a big liability on defense. Tatum also struggled big time defensively until the end of the year, when he did eventually become a stud on that end. Grayson and Frank weren't exactly defensive stoppers either.

We needed a defensive first guy starting, we had plenty of offense. We needed offensive firepower off the bench.

The only reason Grayson ever came off the bench was injuries or his mental meltdown he had. The team won a game or two with him hampered with his ankle, and then didn't change it back. Matt was as much a liability on offense as Luke was on defense. We could argue stuff about zone, no zone, more of bench, less of bench all day long. You guys only see things thru your eyes. Step away from your own brilliance and try looking at it thru a kids eyes. Frank, and a lot of these kids, think they're the best and have been used to being focal point of any team they play on. To me this is what this is all about, not your or my opinion on whether he should stay or go, or whether he's better than someone else. I think he is better than Matt, but more importantly, he probably does too. If you were 18 or 19, would you like not starting if you thought you were better than a guy starting?

 

[hart2chesson]

The only reason Grayson ever came off the bench was injuries or his mental meltdown he had. The team won a game or two with him hampered with his ankle, and then didn't change it back. Matt was as much a liability on offense as Luke was on defense. We could argue stuff about zone, no zone, more of bench, less of bench all day long. You guys only see things thru your eyes. Step away from your own brilliance and try looking at it thru a kids eyes. Frank, and a lot of these kids, think they're the best and have been used to being focal point of any team they play on. To me this is what this is all about, not your or my opinion on whether he should stay or go, or whether he's better than someone else. I think he is better than Matt, but more importantly, he probably does too. If you were 18 or 19, would you like not starting if you thought you were better than a guy starting?

We needed as much offense as possible IMO, because this was not a vintage Duke team defensively. I would have preferred Jackson in the starting role because he would have gotten us more points. OFC

 

[500HP_Devil]

Has anyone seen any mock drafts with Frank in first two rounds? I've only looked briefly but didn't see him on any -

 

[Dattier]

We needed as much offense as possible IMO, because this was not a vintage Duke team defensively. I would have preferred Jackson in the starting role because he would have gotten us more points. OFC

I think that's a really short-sighted opinion.

Go ahead and reply 3 times yourself mixed in with 3 posts by other OFCs where you all like each other's posts and state your freedom to think whatever you want, as if that has anything to do with it.

 

[Mac9192]

I think that's a really short-sighted opinion.

Go ahead and reply 3 times yourself mixed in with 3 posts by other OFCs where you all like each other's posts and state your freedom to think whatever you want, as if that has anything to do with it.

Mr Dattier, that's a cheap shot don't you think? Just curious, are you a teacher or professor? You strike me as a sexual intellect

 

[df64]

Frank seems like a great kid. He has a ton of talent and ability. He was projected to start before Grayson's, Tatum's, and Bolden's injuries! The fact that he did not start all of the time after those injuries has to indicate something. Frank had a really good season. But, the Frank that I saw, was not ready to be handed the keys. He fouled way too often and early and was inconsistent on offense. K has handed the keys to several Freshman: Amaker, Dawkins, Hurley, J Williams, Rivers, and Tyus. Sure some were combo guards, but they had the reigns. He gave other Freshman plenty of starting time and autonomy-the list is long. Frank is free to do whatever he wants. No true fan should begrudge him that. He earned his stripes in the Duke family. I would love to watch him play for Duke next year. But, if he is disgruntled over lack of PT this year or next, then he needs to look in the mirror and watch some tape. He had every opportunity this year and will next year if he stays..

 

[hart2chesson]

I think that's a really short-sighted opinion.

Go ahead and reply 3 times yourself mixed in with 3 posts by other OFCs where you all like each other's posts and state your freedom to think whatever you want, as if that has anything to do with it.

Thanks buddy- love it when you keep my name out there....You da man resident attack dog!

OFC

 

[Dattier]

No true fan should begrudge him that.

With the caveat that disagreeing with his decision isn't the same thing, I agree. I agree w/ the rest, too, but more on this: the same applies to Matt. Disagreeing w/ K's decision to start him is one thing; harping on it every freakin' time it comes up, never accepting it and backing off is another.

 

[hart2chesson]

In defense of Frank Jackson and those who say first round consideration is "way off" or havent seen him any mock drafts......

http://bluedevilnation.net/2017/05/eyes-frank-jackson-nba-combine/

OFC

 

[Dattier]

You strike me as a sexual intellect

Ironically, it took me a while to figure this one out.

I struggle w/ patience toward people whose posts indicate little knowledge or/and acceptance of how K does things and never learn to let it go. Add to it phrasing disparaging K -- like insinuating he just randomly has favorites at the expense of winning -- and my patience wears thinner.

I don't like how poker-faced K plays so many things. I wish he would be more forthcoming about injuries, about frustrations. Not Roy's level of emotional vomit, but loosening up a bit. It's unlikely he ever will, though, so I've accepted it and don't whine about it at every opportunity, as if it has never been said and no one has ever heard it. Instead I accept the corollary that he protects his players, trolling UNC fans w/ the insinuation that Gerald Henderson was the real victim of Nosegate so that all their anger shifts away from a freshman to him.

If Frank started over Matt like some of you want and our defense and chemistry suffered, some of the same people would be whining about how we've gotten away from our defensive principles, and why doesn't Matt play more, etc. That's why I call it short-sighted.

 

[Mac9192]

Ironically, it took me a while to figure this one out.

I struggle w/ patience toward people whose posts indicate little knowledge or/and acceptance of how K does things and never learn to let it go. Add to it phrasing disparaging K -- like insinuating he just randomly has favorites at the expense of winning -- and my patience wears thinner.

I don't like how poker-faced K plays so many things. I wish he would be more forthcoming about injuries, about frustrations. Not Roy's level of emotional vomit, but loosening up a bit. It's unlikely he ever will, though, so I've accepted it and don't whine about it at every opportunity, as if it has never been said and no one has ever heard it. Instead I accept the corollary that he protects his players, trolling UNC fans w/ the insinuation that Gerald Henderson was the real victim of Nosegate so that all their anger shifts away from a freshman to him.

If Frank started over Matt like some of you want and our defense and chemistry suffered, some of the same people would be whining about how we've gotten away from our defensive principles, and why doesn't Matt play more, etc. That's why I call it short-sighted.

Honestly I could care less about your patience. The topic was Frank Jackson, and his nba draft chances. I don't care what Gerald Henderson did years ago, means nothing on a Duke thread about a current topic. We disagree on about everything pertaining to Jackson and Matt, and I find it laughable to say not having Matt out there would have made our defense and chemistry suffer. This Duke team, Matt or no Matt, was bad defensively, and the hope Duke had was to outscore their opponent. Have a good day

 

[dukedevilz]

When conversing offense for defense, I find it useful to look at the 100 points per possession metric. There is a large enough sample size where some of these trends actually make a material difference. Duke's offense, without question, is at it's best when Luke is in the game. On the other side, it's pretty easy to see that our offense suffered the most when Matt was in the game. The question is, does his defense make up for his somewhat limited offensive ability?

Points Per 100 Possessions
Luke Kennard: 0ffense- 130.6, Defense- 104.4
Amile Jefferson: Offense- 125.9, Defense- 97.4
Frank Jackson: Offense- 119.0, Defense- 106.2
Grayson Allen: Offense- 116.7, Defense- 104.8
Harry Giles: Offense- 115.1, Defense- 96.6
Jayson Tatum: Offense- 111.3, Defense- 97.8
Matt Jones: Offense- 110.1, Defense- 103.6

Scoring Margin
Amile, 28.5
Luke, 26.2
Harry, 18.5
Jayson, 13.9
Frank, 12.8
Grayson, 11.9
Matt, 6.5

Harry Giles actually had the third highest scoring margin on the team.

 

[dukiejay]

A lot of things happening in this thread.....

First off, Danny Green has carved out an excellent niche in the pro game. Frank isn't close to where he's at right now. That said, they're two completely different players. Hard to compare the two, but I think it's pretty clear who the better player is right now.

From a pure talent standpoint and projecting a player's future, I have no issue with someone saying Frank will be better than Matt. It's pretty obvious. But I think we're splitting hairs on starting and playing time. Matt played because of his intangibles and was very good in his role. He struggled shooting the ball as a senior which led to a clearer hole in his overall game. Frank still played 25mpg....and that number is likely higher if not for his habitual fouling early in games.

The Frank we saw the last one-third of the season showed glimpses of being pretty special. His ability to shoot from deep, getting into the lane and pure athleticism are, in one word....impressive. He's just raw right now in some of those facets coming together. I don't see a scenario where Frank is helping an NBA team next season, but I do think he carves out a spot in the League for a long time. What Frank needs to decide now is does he want on-the-job training at 19 in the NBA D-League and/or on an NBA bench (while getting paid), or does he choose another season in college where he'll have a chance to showcase himself in almost every game he plays? Coming back to Duke is easy for us to decide....but I'd venture to guess there's a little more to decision. I hope he comes back, but if he feels he's ready to be a pro I'll wish him luck.

 

[hart2chesson]

Honestly I could care less about your patience. The topic was Frank Jackson, and his nba draft chances. I don't care what Gerald Henderson did years ago, means nothing on a Duke thread about a current topic. We disagree on about everything pertaining to Jackson and Matt, and I find it laughable to say not having Matt out there would have made our defense and chemistry suffer. This Duke team, Matt or no Matt, was bad defensively, and the hope Duke had was to outscore their opponent. Have a good day

Yeah I dont know how an incident almost 10 years ago should work its way in the dialogue either but so be it. First of all we have the greatest coach in the country, and to say we are "disrespecting him and the program"is way offbase.Its simply a philosophical difference, and I am sorry it causes one poster's patience to wear thin. This topic has emerged again because Frank is in the combine, and naturally its evolved into his freshman season. I think the PT issue was simply bound to come up. I believe Frank and his dad and a definite segment of Blue Devil followers would agree JACKSON- ALLEN-KENNARD at the 1-2-3 from the get go would have been the more productive line-up in a year Duke was clearly OFFENSIVELY oriented and DEFENSIVELY challenged. I don't call it "short-sighted," but I do by the same token respect everyone's right to their opinion.

Oh and by the way on behalf of ALL OFC's here, I am very proud to be a member. My buddy Sky and I as well as OAD and WILL and others may have radically different views occasionally, but I consider them all my friends. For the most part I love coming here, because I simply love the Blue Devils- football too!

OFC

 

[DukefanKY]

Shelvin had 12 points and was tied with Hayward as Butler's leading scorer against us. He also led them to the championship game the following year, without Hayward. I played AAU basketball with Shelvin so of course I gotta defend my guy.

Maybe I did go a bit overboard on the original comment that Frank was better than the Jazz's PG's. I do get highly irritated by people who don't seem to grasp the thought that the NBA game is played at a much much higher level than the college game.

On top of that...Duke is coming off the most dissapointing season I can ever recall, we just lost a recruiting battle to UK, the NBA playoffs have been awful...so yea maybe I am a little irritable right now.

HAHA!! Great post! I felt some of your same frustrations this year! I like how you illustrated them in that post!

 

[Showenuff]

 

[hart2chesson]

Show I would respectfully disagree. I think the dialogue has focused on the value of a very important member of Duke's team last year, and importance of his potential return this season.

Sure its veered off into some impatience and short fuses amongst some, but its an unsettled time for Duke Basketball right now. Its almost Mid-May and we still are uncertain of who our PG will be next year.

I simply think folks are airing many diverse views, and to me its a good thing for a very passionate fan base to put everything on the table.

OFC

 

[langdon for 3]

Points Per 100 Possessions
Luke Kennard: Offense- 130.6, Defense- 104.4
Amile Jefferson: Offense- 125.9, Defense- 97.4
Frank Jackson: Offense- 119.0, Defense- 106.2
Grayson Allen: Offense- 116.7, Defense- 104.8
Harry Giles: Offense- 115.1, Defense- 96.6
Jayson Tatum: Offense- 111.3, Defense- 97.8
Matt Jones: Offense- 110.1, Defense- 103.6

Scoring Margin
Amile, 28.5
Luke, 26.2
Harry, 18.5
Jayson, 13.9
Frank, 12.8
Grayson, 11.9
Matt, 6.5

Harry Giles actually had the third highest scoring margin on the team.[/QUOTE]

I think this is excellent information to have, and I'd love to see it throughout the season updated every few weeks or month.

Where did you get it? I'd also love to look at it for previous seasons too.

 

[dukedevilz]

I think this is excellent information to have, and I'd love to see it throughout the season updated every few weeks or month.

Where did you get it? I'd also love to look at it for previous seasons too.

Link is listed below. Go down to the stats heading that is labeled, "Per 100 Poss." You can find the offensive/defensive points per 100 possessions on the far right. The column headings are abbreviated as, "ORtg" and "DRtg"... I mentioned these statistics in the middle of the season, but I think I might have done so on the Scout board. There are a lot of valuable metrics available on this site. I view it pretty regularly.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/2017.html

 

[dukedevilz]

Also, for fun, here are the scoring margins in ACC play.

Luke, 18.8
Amile, 16.9
Harry, 8.5
Frank, 8.1
Jayson, 3.9
Grayson, 0.7
Matt, -5.3

 

[LTDukeFan]

Most people that post here say K plays the people that give team best chance to win....

The best team is not always the five best players on the team.

 

[jwill133]

Very good information provided for these stats. However keep in mind, Matt was usually always in the game against the opposing teams starters, and always in the game when the opposition's best scorer was on the floor. He usually checked out of the game when the oppositions best scorer checked out.

Frank/Grayson came off the bench, and often battled against the oppositions 6th/7th/8th men.

Great stats, but can be skewed slightly.

 

[hart2chesson]

The best team is not always the five best players on the team.

Very true LT, theres chemistry and intangibles, but this year Duke needed its most productive 5 in terms of offense on floor as much as possible. We were more geared toward outscoring people than stopping people...

OFC

 

[DukeJim99]

Very good information provided for these stats. However keep in mind, Matt was usually always in the game against the opposing teams starters, and always in the game when the opposition's best scorer was on the floor. He usually checked out of the game when the oppositions best scorer checked out.

Frank/Grayson came off the bench, and often battled against the oppositions 6th/7th/8th men.

Great stats, but can be skewed slightly.

Agreed those stats may be slightly skewed. But Grayson averaged 30 min a game. So, the vast majority of his minutes were certainly against the other team's starters.

I think the better example of stats being slightly skewed may be with Harry. Playing only 11 min a game is a small sample size that definitely could have been affected by, perhaps, Harry getting some of those minutes in garbage time or by teams not focusing their game plans on stopping a guy who's barely cracking double digits in minutes.

 

[DukeJim99]

Are they releasing any info from the combine? I would think that by now the measurements would be complete and some of the athletic drills would be complete. I haven't seen the results of any of that posted yet. Anyone have a link?

Edit: Never mind. Found some results:

 

[dukedevilz]

Very good information provided for these stats. However keep in mind, Matt was usually always in the game against the opposing teams starters, and always in the game when the opposition's best scorer was on the floor. He usually checked out of the game when the oppositions best scorer checked out.

Frank/Grayson came off the bench, and often battled against the oppositions 6th/7th/8th men.

Great stats, but can be skewed slightly.

He was consistently near the bottom all four years. He shot fairly well from the outside as a sophomore and junior, but he struggled mightily as a senior. If he shot as well as he did last year, I think his minutes could probably justified.

2014 Scoring Margins
Amile, 33.7
T.Thornton, 29.9
Andre, 20.1
Quinn, 16.1
Jabari, 15.7
Rodney, 15.5
Marshall, 14.6
Rasheed, 13.7
Hairston, 3.3
Matt, -6.0

2015 Scoring Margins
Marshall, 46.7
Quinn, 27.9
Amile, 27.2
Tyus, 25.8
Jahlil, 24.5
Justise, 22.4
Grayson, 21.9
Matt, 13.6

2016 Scoring Margins
Marshall, 32.0
Amile, 29.4
Grayson, 20.9
Luke, 15.1
Ingram, 10.3
Matt, 7.9
Chase, -5.1
D.Thornton, -12.7

2017 Scoring Margins
Amile, 28.5
Luke, 26.2
Harry, 18.5
Jayson, 13.9
Frank, 12.8
Grayson, 11.9
Matt, 6.5
Chase, -5.7
Marques, -12.3

 

[jwill133]

He was consistently near the bottom all four years. He shot fairly well from the outside as a sophomore and junior, but he struggled mightily as a senior. If he shot as well as he did last year, I think his minutes could probably justified.

2014 Scoring Margins
Amile, 33.7
T.Thornton, 29.9
Andre, 20.1
Quinn, 16.1
Jabari, 15.7
Rodney, 15.5
Marshall, 14.6
Rasheed, 13.7
Hairston, 3.3
Matt, -6.0

2015 Scoring Margins
Marshall, 46.7
Quinn, 27.9
Amile, 27.2
Tyus, 25.8
Jahlil, 24.5
Justise, 22.4
Grayson, 21.9
Matt, 13.6

2016 Scoring Margins
Marshall, 32.0
Amile, 29.4
Grayson, 20.9
Luke, 15.1
Ingram, 10.3
Matt, 7.9
Chase, -5.1
D.Thornton, -12.7

2017 Scoring Margins
Amile, 28.5
Luke, 26.2
Harry, 18.5
Jayson, 13.9
Frank, 12.8
Grayson, 11.9
Matt, 6.5
Chase, -5.7
Marques, -12.3

LOL at Chase and Thornton.

Do find it interesting our highest margin each year was never our best player.

 

[HeLooks2MuchLikeDave]

Are they releasing any info from the combine? I would think that by now the measurements would be complete and some of the athletic drills would be complete. I haven't seen the results of any of that posted yet. Anyone have a link?

Edit: Never mind. Found some results:

View embedded media

Thanks for posting that. I was looking forward to seeing Tatum and Jonathan Isaac's measurables. Too bad they didn't take part. Surprised to see Frank Jackson's wingspan is a good bit longer than Kennard's. Didn't think it would measure 6'8" considering the dude is barely 6'2" without shoes

 

[LTDukeFan]

Very true LT, theres chemistry and intangibles, but this year Duke needed its most productive 5 in terms of offense on floor as much as possible. We were more geared toward outscoring people than stopping people...

OFC

This year Duke needed all its players in some sort of protective gear or armor....

 

[hart2chesson]

This year Duke needed all its players in some sort of protective gear or armor....

Amen my friend....OFC

 

[jnastasi]

Anybody find it comical that Frank and Trevon seem to be waiting on each other and neither is budging on a decision? Quite a stand off we have here.