The guy in this video made an interesting point. Why didn't Coach K use more pick & roll with Zion?
Coach K and Pick & Roll?
- Thread starter ASAPKrzyzewski
- Start date
I’ve hardly ever seen K use pick and roll. I don’t claim to know enough to know if that’s for better or worse.
Coach K has used pick and roll and pick and pop plenty on his career. He’s revolutionized using the slip screen for God’s sake.
When the other team packs the lane essentially in a triangle and 2, good luck getting college level kids to run a good, tight pick and roll action. Not an ideal offense in that situation IMO.
We will when Dachamp takes the reins
No we win when Coach K actually starts coaching again and not just sitting back and watching. He made hardly no adjustments and have empowered the wrong players the last two years. Grayson and RJ had no business touching the ball more than Marvin and Zion in close games
Worst take of all time hahaha.
First question I should ask is you being facetious? Let’s just start there.
I don’t think it was K’s best coaching job by any means, but not coaching at all‽
It’s the summer, let’s have some fun with this.
In my opinion, until Okafor, our bigs would roll to the basket and our guards would look them off and never pass to them. I saw frustration on Plum II's face more than once.
Since then, the bigs haven't had the best of hands and so the P&R wasn't as prevalent.
I'm not saying Coach K uses the P & R as well as say Roy or Izzo, but K adapts to what he has and lately he hasn't had the right team for it.
Last year, the "roller" would be rolling right into the teeth of the defense since defenders would be crowding the lane. Less than ideal.
Since then, the bigs haven't had the best of hands and so the P&R wasn't as prevalent.
I'm not saying Coach K uses the P & R as well as say Roy or Izzo, but K adapts to what he has and lately he hasn't had the right team for it.
Last year, the "roller" would be rolling right into the teeth of the defense since defenders would be crowding the lane. Less than ideal.
I don't think K refrained from coaching his team, but it definitely didn't seem like we ran many set plays at all on offense. Zion should have had way more sets ran for him.
Pick & roll is hard to run consistently when you don't shoot the ball well. Tres defender would have just gone under the screen if he had the ball and defenders would have made Zion and RJ go right off of the pick and they weren't great going to their right. Zion getting the ball down low a little more would have been nice, but once again it's harder to get him the ball down low when defense is sagging.
There's a kid that sits in the pew across from me at church. He does the pick and roll very well. Sometimes after the pick and roll move he will dunk it. OFC
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Name me a year he did a worse. It was pathetic. No way in hell we lose with 3 lottery picks and a generational talent. I’m not kissing his butt like most of you. That’s not me. He was piss poor this year. He will always kick himself for not winning with this past group. If we can get K of 2016 then that would be perfect. We may actually win it all even with this young team.
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He's used pick and roll a ton.
It was an absolute staple on the 2001 team with Jay Williams. He was constantly running pick and roll with Boozer or Battier. He also used it a good deal with the 2010 title team. And he used it some with Kyrie - short lived as it was.
But, I think it is correct that Barrett and Zion should have gone pick and roll a lot more and so too with Tre and Zion. It takes some time to get that going in rhythm but with Barrett's ball skills, height, ability to attack off the dribble, and his passing ability, along with Zion's quickness, power, and athleticism, the pick and roll would have been really hard to stop had they worked it enough.
I love the IDEA dachampishere2 brings with more P&R, but think the way teams played off from us defensively (due to our shooting woes) leaves its actual value in question.
However I do tend to agree with him per K "always kicking himself for not winning it with this group." The man is as driven as any coach I've seen in all of sports. I also tend to agree with him the job K did w/the '16 team (Amile's injury) was terrific, and his best coaching job in last several years.That team in my opinion overachieved by reaching the Sweet 16.
I think you will see K at his best in recent years THIS SEASON. He has so many options not a designated superstar, but balance and I think that will provide him more coaching and teaching opportunities.OFC
However I do tend to agree with him per K "always kicking himself for not winning it with this group." The man is as driven as any coach I've seen in all of sports. I also tend to agree with him the job K did w/the '16 team (Amile's injury) was terrific, and his best coaching job in last several years.That team in my opinion overachieved by reaching the Sweet 16.
I think you will see K at his best in recent years THIS SEASON. He has so many options not a designated superstar, but balance and I think that will provide him more coaching and teaching opportunities.OFC
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After seeing that photo of UNC packing all 5 defenders into the paint while RJ tried to drive the lane, I'm not surprised we didn't get to the Final Four. Sure 2 generational talents, but after that, a lot of flawed role players. Was it K's fault Reddish and Tre were so streaky from outside, and Jack lost his shot in January? Maybe, I wasn't at practice. I only saw the games and K didn't miss any shots.
Nor did he cause us to turn the ball over 17 times inexplicably in the game vs MSU which we lost by one point. We were 32-6, won the ACC and were one basket away from the final four. Disappointing? Definitely- missed opportunity, no doubt. His worst coaching year ever? What? Saying if K coached like he did in ‘16- huh? I guess when you just throw out a statement you don’t have to back it up with any concrete facts.
This is one of my favorite things though- a team with no expectations goes to the sweet 16, gets blown out is somehow seen as one of his better coaching jobs, yet a team like ‘18 would be a “worst” jobs he’s done even though they were a few rolls away from a final four.
Both had top 3 picks, a couple solid shooters and an all American. Both dealt with adversity- injuries, K being hurt and locker room issues, and very inconsistent PG play from freshmen.
You do realize that that generational talent was out the last six games of the year right? And the game he came back was in a single elimination tournament followed by a single elimination tournament. We won one of them and were a basket away from the final four in the second. K felt that it was too late to try and instill something new. We withstood Tre shooting awful in round two, and some inconsistent play in the sweet 16 from others and advanced. Riding RJ and Zion is what beat UVA the team that won it all. It was what got us there so he felt why go away from what has worked. And with under a minute to go we had the lead so it was working. We ran the exact same set the last four or five times down the floor. Both Zion and RJ touched the ball each of those possessions. They were trusted and tasked with making the right read. Zion at the end saw that RJ has the better angle and passes, he takes it in and what i loves is he learned from the Gonzaga game- he hesitates and draws the foul. He happened to miss and we lose.
Lol couldn't agree more. We were also gifted a Sweet 16 path in 2016, Yale upset Baylor in the first round. I remember that Baylor team was an elite dominant physical rebounding team and we were a terrible rebounding team.
The tournament requires an insane amount of luck. Remember the Gonzaga Elite 8 game back in 2015? It was back and forth the whole second half, and then Wiltjer missed a wide open bunny for them and then we started to run away, total luck he missed that. We just as easily could have been bounced in the Elite 8 that year too.
The fact that we STILL should have beaten MSU given the 17 turnovers speaks to the amount of talent we had. Yes....MSU scored after every timeout and I believe we turned the ball over after every timeout. Could you blame K for that?? Sure. But K wasn't out there throwing the ball away every time either.
I'm over last season, even though I think we would have rolled through the Final 4. It was still a really fun ride and a team that will always be one of my favorites.
I will NEVER get over the Kansas Elite 8 loss in 2018. Up 3 with less than a minute left. Grayson holding the ball and taking a tough shot. The Wendell block call in OT. That one will sting forever.
Is it K’s fault that Goings hit that three? I guess so, bc I’m sure that was absolutely the shot they wanted to give up. Dude was 3-11 and 1-7 from deep. They stopped Winston and then Goings hit the shot of the game with like 40 seconds left.
I think its a good thing to have varying POV's here. Bottom line it shows a very PASSIONATE FAN BASE that follows for my money is still the premier program in the country. K rebuilt it from ashes into a monster.
Its funny, that '81 team (his first) started the season 7-7, yet finished 17-13. He did a remararkable job w/that team (much like '16) and didnt miss an NCAA bid by much. That team had Banks, Dennard and Vince Taylor.Center Mike Tissaw was simply overmatched and had limited talents inside, but gave max effort. I guess in some respects they reminded me of that '16 team, overachieving in some ways. OFC
Its funny, that '81 team (his first) started the season 7-7, yet finished 17-13. He did a remararkable job w/that team (much like '16) and didnt miss an NCAA bid by much. That team had Banks, Dennard and Vince Taylor.Center Mike Tissaw was simply overmatched and had limited talents inside, but gave max effort. I guess in some respects they reminded me of that '16 team, overachieving in some ways. OFC
Somewhat off topic, but I always feel the 2010 Championship Team was underrated compared to some of the groups like we had this year that was way flashier but less of a TEAM with complementary parts.
I think you hit on something there LIFTEE, and I would tend to agree. Thats something that excites me about this upcoming year's team. OFC
Tim, with all due respect, I think what some are getting at is that the coaching staff developing different strategies and tactics over the course of the season would've transcended any one particular play in one particular game.
For example, as much as I love Coach K, I just don't think he and the coaches did a good enough job developing and employing offensive strategies and tactics that put more of our guys in better positions to have success besides Zion and R.J.
I've discussed this enough in the past that I don't want to rehash all the details here but that's the general point. If we'd done that --in addition to altering our defensive strategy earlier in the year--I think we beat Michigan State by double digits, and again, that would've transcended any one particular play. I also think we beat UCF and Va. Tech more comfortably. And I also don't think we would've struggled as much when Zion went down.
I don't think they did a poor job by any means. I just think they could've been better.
Again, no disrespect intended. We're all Duke fans gents, and as mentioned, nothing wrong with having multiple points of view.
I can handle this post because you provided your POVs with examples. One issue i had with the end of year that to me i just couldn’t figure out is why did we stop pressuring full court to open up the second half? If you watched a lot of our games in the first half of the year we kind of played a half court defensive pace but would open the second half pressing full court, turning other teams over and breaking it open. Our advantages were turning other teams over which got us into our biggest strength which was getting out and finishing in transition. Why we went away from that was the biggest head scratcher to me.
My counter to others was with RJ and Zion being the only two guys, which was simply not the case. In crunch time, absolutely. But as was said above by i think Lift or Jwill, it gets tough when you don’t have others that you can consistently count on- Jack, Cam or Tre were streaky. So i don’t think it was a lack of development or strategy as much as, what can we trust when going gets tough. Cam in transition for 3, yes, but we never got into transition And so, at that point in the game, last really 230-3min, we had to go to our bread and butter.
No offense taken what so ever, well thought out post and i understand your thought process. Thanks for the post.
Hahahaha. I hope you hold stock in message board clichés. Seriously this continuous take from some on this board may be worse than the others.
No one, not one person has said this was anywhere near his best coaching job. But what is the criteria for “worst coaching job?” Not getting to Final Four with Zion? If that’s the case, Alvin Gentry and a lot of other coaches are going to have “piss poor” seasons too.
That ideology is lazy. Not winning a championship in a one and done tournament is not the only measure of success. This team had a lot of other problems that had nothing to do with coaching. And guess what, the coaches continuously tried to mask those problems and they masked them to the tune of an Elite Eight. And you know what else, you’re right, I bet every player and coach and manager on that team is disappointed they came up short. That has nothing to do with the job that was done.
So before you go off on one of your “I’m not like you Coach K ass kissers, I’m a realist” b.s. tangents, consider what you’re actually arguing. You’re arguing about how bad Coach K was in an Elite Eight year. You’re better than that.
Having 2 “generational talents” has absolutely nothing to do with his coaching job. Those guys were already that talented regardless. And if they went anywhere other than Duke, they too would have to been among the 365 other poorly coached teams in college basketball, because if a title is your so called measure of success, Tony Bennett was the only good coach this season.
I’m not sure anyone is disallowing a differing POV, @hart2chesson. There’s no difference in someone calling out for being a horrible coach, than someone saying he’s a good one.
Anyone will argue their POV just like anyone else. I’m not sure what the conception is there. Just because people disagree, it doesn’t mean they’re somehow suppressing someone else. It just so happens in this case, more people disagree with “K did a horrible job” than agree with that take.
And the “piss poor” rhetoric without substance is tired. It’s still someone’s opinion, so be it, but the lack of substance holds no water with a group of knowledgeable fans.
Maybe K could have done a little better, but we wouldn’t be having this discussion had a few guys been a little more consistent offensively. Cam, Tre, and Alex hurt us. To me it’s that simple.
We all are disappointed, but effort wasn’t an issue, and as a fan, as much as it hurt, I can live with it.
We all are disappointed, but effort wasn’t an issue, and as a fan, as much as it hurt, I can live with it.
Pal all I am really saying is dialogue on different POV's is not a bad thing. It makes for interesting reading and as I scan other message boards seems to be the norm.
I also never said or meant to imply someone was "DISALLOWING" another person's view. Do I think K did a "pisspoor" job? No way. Do I think he's had seasons where he's done better? I happen to believe yes he has.However there's so many things a coach CANNOT CONTROL-like the shooting woes. I do however believe Timo was spot-on about more defensive pressure needed. Thank you, rant over, OFC
Great post Tim with some great points.
Question for you and others... do you think it could've benefited Cam if we'd given him more burn at point guard? Nothing against Tre whatsoever, of course he's going to be the primary.
If we could've figured out how to get the ball in Cam's hands more--somehow--i think it would've benefited the entire team and especially him.
Yes. Cam was the primary ball handler on his AAU team. Anything to get Cam a bigger role on our offense would have done wonders for him. Now the issue was...Cam couldn't dribble very well, so I'm sure thats why K felt more comfortable having RJ be the primary man when Tre was out.
I think the worst thing to happen to this team was beating UK by 34 points in November. It was awesome, don't get me wrong. But maybe had we won by 4 points in a hard fought ugly victory, our guys (and the staff) may have been more motivated to improve throughout the season (I'm not saying our guys weren't motivated either, it was just really weird that we didn't improve as a team at all and the only guy who made strides throughout the season was Zion IMO, again REALLY WEIRD.)
Quite honestly I’m just seeing where that was going, because in the past, any disagreement of “K did a bad job” has turned into “the board isn’t allowing me to have an opinion.” I wanted to make sure that wasn’t the case here. No sarcasm needed.
Right. And not even to that extreme, literally our 5 the best and most versatile post player, Jack White, went AWOL in January and not one person was qualified to fit that role, a role in which this team full of generational talents so desperately needed.
And considering all of that, we had 2 points in transition against MSU. The team that is probably one of the best fast break teams in college history had 2 against MSU. That’ll do pig.
I understand where you are coming from Hokie..... I'm not sure we'll find a fans board without "sarcasm" though.OFC
Always good to hear from the Ipster! OFC
