Coleman or Green?
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With the success we've had, this sounds like the comments of a spoiled child to me.
When you are wealthy you eat quality food consistently because you can and that's what you want. duke is a wealthy school of quality with coach k, and good PGs thrive in our system. I get shocked that we don't have better consistency at the pg position. We're all spoiled as duke fans, k has set the bar, not us. Yes, I expect it consistently. I don't expect a championship every year because that's tough no matter the talent, but I expect a team that has a good chance. Pg play has held us back a lot.
I don't think we necessarily need a PG to thrive in our offensive system. Derryck Thornton was not exactly a stud PG and to be honest had very little impact on our offense and we were just fine scoring the ball last year. Frank Jackson certainly isn't a true 1 but I have a great feeling I will love his game. And I really don't think we will have any problem scoring the ball this year. Like a GM in a draft when you start reaching for a position of need you get yourself in trouble. You take the best talent available and you coach them all up individually and as a team. If we can defend this year the sky is the limit and it won't be because of pg play. When you start forcing a PG into a system sometimes you end up with a disappointed individual see DT.
I really hate the PG conversation. There's more to Duke's successes and failures than a PG. And Duke has had more great PG's than a lot conferences can even boast. I'm ok with the rate in which K has brought in great lead guards. And in 2017, you won't find but a couple and they bring other baggage.
And I prefer my ribeye bone out.
And I prefer my ribeye bone out.
I didn't say you need a true pg, we had good consistent play at that position in 2010 and 2011. Then not again until 15. Our play at the position last year was poor.
I'm gonna wait and see what Frank Jackson does before I write him off, I think he's gonna be amazing.
True, but I think last year's team actually overachieved despite not having good point guard play.
I'm not trying to say having a good point guard isn't something that isn't needed, but I don't think our point guards between Hurley and Williams and Irving and Jones have been poor, or the cause of the problems some of those teams faced. They just weren't necessarily All-Americans. Just like I think some the championship winning point guards we had weren't the only reasons we won titles.
In K's 36 seasons at Duke he's had what, maybe 12 seasons of sub par point guard play. They just happen to be stacked around the time he was transitioning into recruiting one and dones. I think we've been fine with what we've had to deal with, and the guys who played for him, gave what they had. They can't all be Jason Williams or Bobby Hurley or Johnny Dawkins, but the sure as heck weren't the sole reason some of those teams underachieved.
i agree with this and agree pg play is definitely not the only reason we've lost in the past. My point was it should be one of the easiest positions for duke to recruit having k, and the system we run. We've won championships without great center play, but not without good play at the 1.
I do think we've recruited well. We've had the 3 Paulus years and the Quinn Cook/Tyler Thornton years. Add last season (even though we recruited a point guard at the time that graded out to be one of the better guards in his class and the class he reclassified to) to that if you want but that's 10 years out of 36 where you can say our point guard position was recruited poorly. 2/3 of the time K got it right. I'll take that.
Quinn is a very interesting case study. He didn't have anyone elite to learn from so was kind of just thrown into the fire. He wasn't an elite player so had to go threw the hardships and rigors. He had his ups and downs- had some flashes of brilliance in his soph and junior year but never consistent. Senior year he moved off the ball and became a true leader, pretty impressive.
he averaged 12ppg and 4 ast essentially his soph and jr year.....soph year he had 3 vets and a budding sulaimon.......his jr year, parker and hood dominated the team.....sr year was a thing of beauty
Mental consistency is the thing that plagued Quinn early on. He had all the tools and talent.
I think the hardest thing about the one and done era is finding a way to teach sound team defense in such a short amount of time. That if anything has been our bugaboo in the one and done era. Kids growing up in today's world and especially in the AAU circuit are finely tuned machines when it comes to offense. They can shoot drive and score better than ever. The run and gun style of AAU ball only enables teams to out score one another rather than getting stops. When your roster turns over like it has recently at Duke and Uk it is an uphill battle getting a new group to learn and buy in to 2-way basketball. Everyone wants to take and make the last shot, but teaching defensive principles to a group who has gotten by on individual athleticism is quite the task.
Just as an aside, I will take a rim protector over a pg any day of the week come March. when is the last time Duke had a guy back there to erase a shot or 2 consistently? Even though he was mostly on guards how nice was it to have Justise who was capable of eliminating what otherwise would have been easy buckets for our opponents....defense and rebounding destroyed us last year, not offense.
Just as an aside, I will take a rim protector over a pg any day of the week come March. when is the last time Duke had a guy back there to erase a shot or 2 consistently? Even though he was mostly on guards how nice was it to have Justise who was capable of eliminating what otherwise would have been easy buckets for our opponents....defense and rebounding destroyed us last year, not offense.
I have said this in the past and I know I sound like a broken record, but I am really tired of seeing highlight videos of PG that do not include passing and getting assists.
Coleman looks like a stud -- can he pass the ball?
I know that Green seems to be optimizing on a school that is close to his family, but what little I have seen he does like to pass the ball.
Just my quick observation.
Two biggest criteria for me getting excited about a kid thinking about Duke:
1. The coaches want him here.
2. The kid wants to be on the team.
Coleman looks like a stud -- can he pass the ball?
I know that Green seems to be optimizing on a school that is close to his family, but what little I have seen he does like to pass the ball.
Just my quick observation.
Two biggest criteria for me getting excited about a kid thinking about Duke:
1. The coaches want him here.
2. The kid wants to be on the team.
"We" might have another banner if someone not named JJ or Shelden hit some shots in that LSU game that knocked Duke out. JJ was drawing 2 defenders at all times and even 3 at times. Nobody could hit a shot outside of Shelden. Duke could have won a title in 2006 if someone else had stepped up and made some open looks that were there all game long.
There are LOTS of things going on for a PG in 2017.
- Duke is hosting Green for CTC and is in his top 5. My opinion, FWIW, is Green does not come to Duke.
- Duke has made some impression on Coleman. I'm trying to contradict any recruiting sites, but I think it's 50/50 Texas and Duke.
- Duke is all in on Duval. All that's standing in the way here is the NCAA assessing Duval's transcript (credits he earned) from last year. If this gets ironed out, again, this is my opinion, but he ends up at Duke.
- Duke is hosting Green for CTC and is in his top 5. My opinion, FWIW, is Green does not come to Duke.
- Duke has made some impression on Coleman. I'm trying to contradict any recruiting sites, but I think it's 50/50 Texas and Duke.
- Duke is all in on Duval. All that's standing in the way here is the NCAA assessing Duval's transcript (credits he earned) from last year. If this gets ironed out, again, this is my opinion, but he ends up at Duke.
Don't disagree, but we struggled to get easy good looks that game. Pg would have been huge with the way they defended duke.
That's the thing. Duke actually played decent defense. But we couldn't grab a rebound outside of Shelden and no one could hit a shot. DeMarcus was injured that year and never became the scoring we hoped he would be, Lee only took two shots, JJ was 3-18, Shelden was 8-18 and Josh was 4-10. That team could have used an NBA caliber point guard (basically the same team went to the Final Four in 2004), but most really good teams with NBA caliber point guards go to the Final Four. That's a blanket statement. Add Daniel Ewing to the 2006 squad and they probably win a title. It is what it is.
I think there's some weird debate happening where one side thinks the other side is saying Duke won't succeed without an NBA Hall of Fame John Stockton point guard and one side thinks the other side is saying any team could win with steat as a point guard.
My point has always been that K seems better equipped to win with what he has at his disposal better than he has been in the past. The 2012 Olympic squad seemed to do him more good than all the others IMO. He came back with some really good, really versatile offensive sets, and his willingness to experiment on D has proved important as well.
Yeah I don't think duke needs to follow an exact perfect formula at pg, but we need good consistent play from whoever is running the show.
I think Scheyer demonstrated this perfectly. Was he a true point guard? No. Did he play the role of a point guard when asked? Perfectly.
That LSU team was a nightmare matchup for us. More important than a lack of a great PG in 2006, I thought we lacked one or two really good athletes. Besides J.J. we didn't really have a guy who could get his off the bounce.
Say what you will, but that 2006 team also really missed a kid named Shavlik.
Say what you will, but that 2006 team also really missed a kid named Shavlik.
I'd like to say I agree with you but Duke had a ton of open looks that game. Certainly enough that they could have won the game. They didn't need anyone else to win that game, they needed to make open looks.
Every coach is better equipped with a star player. At any position. I would think that was obvious. My point was that 2006 team could have won that LSU game wif they hit more open looks. What did they shoot, 29%?
I tend to agree to an extent. Only having Kyrie and Tyus for one year is what makes it tough for me. Other than those two, our PG play has been average at best by Duke standards over the past decade. We even had issues at PG in 2010 when we won it all. Scheyer was just our primary ball-handler, he did very little in terms of creating and distributing.
I think that is a bit misleading. Duke's offense was as efficient as anyone that year. Especially after Scheyer was inserted as the guy who brought the ball up the court and initiated the offense. Sure Scheyer was not the prototypical PG, (neither was Kyrie BTW) but the offense sure got a lot better with his move to the point. Stats aside, something was better with him at that position rather than Nolan. I loved that 2010 team! A bunch of really solid players who played well together.
I agree with they were open looks but they were all from 3, and they were shot by Dockery, Nelson, and Paulus (maybe Lee shot some too, can't remember). I remember dockery and nelson hitting 3's that year but not a ton of them, and paulus struggling shooting. I just don't think you can rely on the 3 ball come tournament time when playing in these huge arena's/football stadiums.
Our offense was extremely efficient in 2010, ranked 1st by KenPom I do believe. That also had a lot to do with our style of play and not necessarily how well Jon did at PG. To his credit though, he didn't turn it over much if I remember correctly. Masterful job by K that season, I loved that team too. I just miss not having that carryover at the PG position. With that being said, basketball as a whole is moving away from the role of a traditional PG. Not many John Stockton's in the NBA.
I get that. However, just make something more than 20 something % of your shots and it opens up the floor for others like JJ to get better looks. LSU threw every gimmick they could at him and made the others beat them. They didn't. Failed badly doing so. I think these guys are D-1 players for a reason and they had a poor night shooting. Heck a mediocre night shooting and Duke could have won that game. I am salty about that game BTW, if you can't tell. LOL. I felt so bad for JJ and Shelden to have to go out like that.
dukiejay brought up a good point as well, no Shav that game.
That team was spent after the ACC championship. Duke spent so much emotional and physical energy getting themselves back into that game and winning it.
That team as much as I loved them was flawed though. They often got caught having JJ just carry the entire team on his back. As good as he was, LSU did a fantastic job of frustrating the hell out of him and forcing anyone and everyone else to beat them. We could not and thus we lose. We had a ton of open looks that game and I remember being royally pissed we lost because we were clearly the better team.
That team as much as I loved them was flawed though. They often got caught having JJ just carry the entire team on his back. As good as he was, LSU did a fantastic job of frustrating the hell out of him and forcing anyone and everyone else to beat them. We could not and thus we lose. We had a ton of open looks that game and I remember being royally pissed we lost because we were clearly the better team.
While I do think we might have been a tired team late that season, I still don't think it's the reason we lost to LSU. Like I said previously, they were a team with tremendous athletes....and that was the recipe to beating Duke that entire season. Especially if we weren't making shots. Tyrus Thomas, Tasmin Mitchell, Magnum Rolle, Garrett Temple and the list goes on. Of those four guys alone, we didn't have a single player who could even approach half their athleticism.
The Tigers scared me the day the field was announced, and when #5 seed Syracuse lost to the #12 seed Texas A&M in the first round I was pretty sure we'd see LSU in the Sweet 16. We were the better team, IMO, but the better team doesn't always win. I just think their length created havoc for us on both offense and defense.
I remember a sequence in that game where I knew we could potentially be in trouble, and some others might remember it. We were up like 53-48 with under 10 minutes left and J.J. got a wide-open look on the right wing for three (and he had so few wide-open looks that entire night)....anyway, he missed it and it turned into a transition basket for LSU. From potentially being up eight to only three in a matter of seconds. We never recovered.
I know in 1999 we should have won the title and that it hurt so much....but 2006 is still one of the more stinging Duke losses for me in my lifetime. I was just sick that night. I'm not sure I watched another game of the tournament that year. I wanted a title so bad for J.J. and Shelden.
The Tigers scared me the day the field was announced, and when #5 seed Syracuse lost to the #12 seed Texas A&M in the first round I was pretty sure we'd see LSU in the Sweet 16. We were the better team, IMO, but the better team doesn't always win. I just think their length created havoc for us on both offense and defense.
I remember a sequence in that game where I knew we could potentially be in trouble, and some others might remember it. We were up like 53-48 with under 10 minutes left and J.J. got a wide-open look on the right wing for three (and he had so few wide-open looks that entire night)....anyway, he missed it and it turned into a transition basket for LSU. From potentially being up eight to only three in a matter of seconds. We never recovered.
I know in 1999 we should have won the title and that it hurt so much....but 2006 is still one of the more stinging Duke losses for me in my lifetime. I was just sick that night. I'm not sure I watched another game of the tournament that year. I wanted a title so bad for J.J. and Shelden.
Damnit....now I'm going to be thinking about that LSU game. Whoever brought up 2006....damn you.
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