WARNING: POLITICAL Albany cancels November game due to HB2 law

[Dattier]

Unless things are getting out of hand and the mods decide to lock it, these things need to run their course. If you aren't interested in a completely natural turn the thread takes, it's best to avoid it and be patient. The OT board is pretty much worthless still, isn't it?

HB2 is a compelling social issue lots of people have strong opinions about. Talk about how it doesn't belong here usually comes across to me like code-switching for, "I don't want to talk or think about it," and I find that <I>that</I> is usually a sign that someone either supports the status quo or just doesn't care.

 

[gottagonow]

Dattier it's a larger social issue with you than it is with me. I support the law as passed by the State of North Carolina. Its fine for you to support whichever you wish just as it is for me. Personally I do not find it to be that large of a issue but that coincides with my conservative thinking. I do care and I do support the status quo though.

 

[Dattier]

As I said on the last page, though, when you view something as a civil right that is denied someone, there can be no agreeing to disagree, as that maintains the status quo. It's almost always the people who are satisfied with how things are who want to truncate discussion, either by misapplying the "agree to disagree" mantra or by going meta about how it's not the time or place to discuss it.

You're entitled to believe it's a good law. You are not entitled to my respect for your stance. I'm cool with discussing it, and I'm cool with being civil about it. There's not going to be much to say if those who claim they aren't interested just ignore the thread. To the extent the mods allow us to discuss it, according to our civility and maturity about it, I'll defend the principle of discussing it, and I'll support the side of it I believe is just.

 

[dukiejay]

Doing just fine being on the right side of history.

The right side of history, in your opinion. That's the caveat. I'll be honest in saying I don't know know enough about the law and that these days I follow politics at just a fraction of what I used to....it's become tiresome for me. That's not necessarily right, but it is what it is.

I'll also add this....by the school coming out in opposition to HB2 it doesn't mean everybody in every circle of the school supports or thinks the same. As recently as just five years ago I know K himself was a registered Republican. That said, I still consider myself Republican....but I'm more liberal socially than 90% of others on the right.

Lastly, and this will never happen just because K holds stuff like this close to the vest, but what would the reaction be by some if K did speak out more about his politics....specifically if those beliefs were more right-leaning? Just something I'm throwing out there. Personally, I appreciate him leaving that stuff to others.

 

[df64]

The Albany Great Danes didn't dishonor any commitment. The New York State Governor banned "unnecessary" travel to North Carolina. Albany didn't have a choice.

No, LBGT is not a handicap. They are members of a very small minority. That alone puts them in a position to be marginalized, abused, discriminated against, etc. Specifically, they belong to group which has historically been mocked, discriminated against, abused, and even murdered for their lifestyle. So yeah, I will stick up for them.

I find it interesting how many sports fans will beg a recruit to come to their school. Proclaim we love you, we need you etc. Go crazy rooting for those who do choose to attend. Then they turn and dismiss serious issues that pertain to those recruits. Without even getting into race, does anyone on this board think that Duke never had a gay player? Do the fans of other team assume none of their players have been gay? Should these issues only be important to us when we find out our All American is gay and we have no chance at winning without him?

 

[pisgah101]

Nobody should be harmed because of who they are but allowing MEN into women's restrooms and opening the door for someone like myself to waltz in there isn't safe period. I don't want my mom, Mamaw, sister, fiancé in a restroom with a man simple as that. You can fall where you want but this isn't about civil rights it's about safety

 

[Dattier]

Nobody should be harmed because of who they are but allowing MEN into women's restrooms and opening the door for someone like myself to waltz in there isn't safe period. I don't want my mom, Mamaw, sister, fiancé in a restroom with a man simple as that. You can fall where you want but this isn't about civil rights it's about safety

It's about a made-up safety concern. There are 11 other entire states and 225 cities beyond those states with laws protecting gender-identity in bathroom use. I've heard of a total of 5 cases or so that fall into some gray area that could sort of be seen as abuses of those laws, and not one of them is an open-and-shut case of what HB2 supporters have expressed fear over. One, for example, involved a transwoman punching another woman who questioned her presence in a women's restroom. The punch was a crime, not her true gender. Another, in Seattle, involved a man who was protesting the law, so he walked into a women's lockerroom and was quickly addressed and stopped.

Meanwhile, there are numerous cases of transwomen being assaulted and harassed in men's rooms. And the number one threat to anyone and everyone in restrooms is cis men. Their victims include boys, too. HB2 forces transmen -- who look like men
and take testosterone supplements -- to use women's restrooms. You mean to tell me you prefer someone who presents as a man walking into a women's room all because of what he doesn't have in his pants?

It's also not about just making your mind up about what gender you feel like today, as if it's picking out which shirt to wear. Transpeople live their entire lives as their true gender. Transmen have beards and deep voices. Transwomen are easier to spot (in my experience), but they have all the mannerisms and demeanor of any other woman. It's already against the law to assault someone in a restroom or to peep. The Charlotte ordinance protecting LGBTQ people, like the Seattle one I referenced above, does not prevent people from questioning someone they don't think belongs. No one would be forced to accept any person in any restroom w/o the right to say anything, and it's not as simple as just saying, "I'm trans" and that gives you a free pass. It's not diplomatic immunity or a pack of Mentos.

 

[Dukesince90]

It was a very interesting discussion when I tried to explain to my 78 year old mother the possibility of a man going into the ladies restroom. That's a tough one for that generation to deal with. But hey, it's about that less than 1% using the bathroom of their choice.

Before anyone chastises me, I understand that everyone should have their rights.
I just think there wasn't a problem to begin with. Just use the bathroom in which people would identify your gender is.

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

There is a big difference between having certain beliefs that differ from others and condoning violence towards people who have differing beliefs.

As far as players being gay? Personally, even with the knowledge of their sexuality, I would still support them if they played for Duke and root against them if they played for our rivals. I would still prefer that they keep their sexual preferences to themselves.

I do think that discrimination needs to be addressed and that as people we should treat each other as we expect to be treated ourselves. But I also think that we are being over sensitized in our society.

 

[gottagonow]

As I said on the last page, though, when you view something as a civil right that is denied someone, there can be no agreeing to disagree, as that maintains the status quo. It's almost always the people who are satisfied with how things are who want to truncate discussion, either by misapplying the "agree to disagree" mantra or by going meta about how it's not the time or place to discuss it.

You're entitled to believe it's a good law. You are not entitled to my respect for your stance. I'm cool with discussing it, and I'm cool with being civil about it. There's not going to be much to say if those who claim they aren't interested just ignore the thread. To the extent the mods allow us to discuss it, according to our civility and maturity about it, I'll defend the principle of discussing it, and I'll support the side of it I believe is just.

Dattier it's perfectly fine if I don't have your respect on this matter and that in itself make me feel better about my stance as I am proud in my views. I am quiet comfortable in my thinking and how you feel about political or social matters makes no difference to me whatsoever. I owe no one an apology for any belief I have but there is one thing that gives me comfort. I treat all people the same be they gay, transgender, black, tan, white or yellow or wrong to me in expecting others to think as they do.I treat them with full respect even if I disagree with the way they live their lives. I have no problem with you at all other than you wishing your thinking on me and others. This politically correct agenda shouldn't even be on our basketball board but I do realize the hacking issue prevents that.

 

[Dattier]

It was a very interesting discussion when I tried to explain to my 78 year old mother the possibility of a man going into the ladies restroom. That's a tough one for that generation to deal with. But hey, it's about that less than 1% using the bathroom of their choice.

Before anyone chastises me, I understand that everyone should have their rights.
I just think there wasn't a problem to begin with. Just use the bathroom in which people would identify your gender is.

It's a tough one for pretty much every generation over 30, simply because it's so new and so outside what we've always known. I confess I don't fully understand it all, and I only recently got the terms straight for which is which.

I've heard some say there wasn't a problem before Charlotte passed their ordinance. In the sense that we were all probably sharing restrooms with transpeople and didn't even know it, I agree. And we still won't know when it inevitably happens.

I don't think what others identify us as should have anything to do with it. There are transmen who look exactly like men, but HB2 means they legally have to use the women's room. That seems far more disconcerting than having a transwomen in there.

A perception about conservatives that perplexes and irks me is that they seem to think their own thoughts and feelings should have authority in what others get to do. It was the impression when they wanted to prevent consenting adults from marrying each other because they were the same gender and it's the impression I get here when they're worried about the genitals of the person peeing next to them. It's the biggest contradiction to the professed stances on government intrusion of any point on the political spectrum, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Dattier]

Dattier it's perfectly fine if I don't have your respect on this matter and that in itself make me feel better about my stance as I am proud in my views. I am quiet comfortable in my thinking and how you feel about political or social matters makes no difference to me whatsoever. I owe no one an apology for any belief I have but there is one thing that gives me comfort. I treat all people the same be they gay, transgender, black, tan, white or yellow or wrong to me in expecting others to think as they do.I treat them with full respect even if I disagree with the way they live their lives. I have no problem with you at all other than you wishing your thinking on me and others. This politically correct agenda shouldn't even be on our basketball board but I do realize the hacking issue prevents that.

If I may clarify, I believe I am extending the same respect/courtesy to you that you extend to everyone else. That is a separate matter from whether you approve of their lives or I approve of your beliefs. If we use that definition of respect meaning "regard for," you do not have that form of respect for, I presume, gay people or transpeople. And that is the form of respect I do not have for your beliefs. Further, it's not your beliefs I would seek to control. It's the legal influence your beliefs have over others' lives. Take that power away and you are left to your beliefs in peace. In the meantime, it is their intrusion into others' rights that absolutely will be attacked, though if they are intruding on others, it's more accurately a counter-attack. Again, remove that intrusion and you'll find your right to your beliefs left alone.

The accusations levied against progressives typically include what you just did -- insinuating that I want to control your thoughts -- and the disconnect between that and how your leveraging your thoughts and beliefs into legislation is the same thing. How we live our lives is pretty closely connected to our beliefs, so believing someone else's life "style" is immoral, and combining that belief with legal influence over their lives becomes your own life "style," and I object to that. The distinction is in what affects anyone else. A married gay couple doesn't affect you. A transman peeing in the men's room doesn't affect you (you know the rule: eyes in front). Your support of the overturned marriage amendment and HB2 absolutely did/does affect others. (Apologies if I'm misrepresenting your support. Those stances go hand-in-hand for the most part.)

Not to open too many other cans of worms... while it is noble to treat everyone the same regarding respect in the manners sense, I would hope you recognize the need to make accommodations for their differences, too. You would speak louder for someone with hearing difficulties, for example, or slow down for a companion in a wheelchair who needed to use the longer ramp instead of leaping up the stairs. If someone's race, gender, orientation, or identity has shaped their life's experience, treating them respectfully and fairly includes recognition of that influence and some personalization.

 

[pisgah101]

Appeasement of less than 1% is stupid and the only reason people under 30 agree is because college professors ha d rotted their brain. And I'm an under 30 college graduate

 

[HuffyJB]

A perception about conservatives that perplexes and irks me is that they seem to think their own thoughts and feelings should have authority in what others get to do. It was the impression when they wanted to prevent consenting adults from marrying each other because they were the same gender and it's the impression I get here when they're worried about the genitals of the person peeing next to them. It's the biggest contradiction to the professed stances on government intrusion of any point on the political spectrum, as far as I'm concerned.

That specific contradiction has always amazed me. One of the conservative tenants is that of small government and limited government involvement, yet they are the collective who traditionally advocates for legislation that would involve itself in people's lives in the most personal ways possible (who can get married, who can adopt, women's rights, etc.). There seems to me to be a pretty obvious disconnect there.

 

[Dattier]

Appeasement of less than 1% is stupid and the only reason people under 30 agree is because college professors ha d rotted their brain. And I'm an under 30 college graduate

What you call appeasement I call rights, and everyone's rights concern me. I'm going to cite your use of the word "stupid" as the first breach of civility I've observed here.

 

[gottagonow]

Damn, I can hardly wait for basketball to begin!

 

[pisgah101]

What you call appeasement I call rights, and everyone's rights concern me. I'm going to cite your use of the word "stupid" as the first breach of civility I've observed here.

Go ahead. But when the rights of the 1% step in the rights of the 99 we have a problem.

 

[Dattier]

I'm in that 99%, as are my wife, 2 daughters, and son. None of us suffers the loss of any rights without HB2. Neither do you or anyone else. I've already explained that fairly thoroughly to you.

 

[pisgah101]

If one single woman goes to her regular bathroom and one single man goes in there and harms her then her right have been taken.

 

[skysdad]

Damn, I can hardly wait for basketball to begin!

We have football coming up soon and we have a thread here on this board until the football board is back up and running. I agree with you I can't wait until BB season is here. In the mean time this board is what we make and we can only control what we as in individuals decide to post. I'm trying hard not to respond things that don't apply to what I feel should be discussed . With The Lounge being down some of that boards discussion has made it's way here. We will just have to deal with or not post or on things reply. OFC

 

[DukeDenver]

I'm not buying the "safety concern". Bathrooms aren't guarded either way. Let people piss where they want and report criminal activity when neccesary.

 

[Dattier]

If one single woman goes to her regular bathroom and one single man goes in there and harms her then her right have been taken.

That has always been illegal. HB2 doesn't improve on it at all.

 

[pisgah101]

That has always been illegal. HB2 doesn't improve on it at all.

Ok but it makes it ok for a man to go in a woman's bathroom

 

[dukehokie]

We have football coming up soon and we have a thread here on this board until the football board is back up and running. I agree with you I can't wait until BB season is here. In the mean time this board is what we make and we can only control what we as in individuals decide to post. I'm trying hard not to respond things that don't apply to what I feel should be discussed . With The Lounge being down some of that boards discussion has made it's way here. We will just have to deal with or not post or on things reply. OFC

I have already addressed this. Which is why I changed the thread title. There are about 5 people regularly posting on this thread. I don't see the problem especially since the Lounge is down.

Let's put it out there one more time. This thread is political and moral in nature. THE ONLY REASON IT IS HERE IS BECAUSE OF THE LOUNGE ISSUE. THIS IS NOT THE NORM FOR THIS BOARD. NOR WILL IT BECOME THAT.

We've all done a really good job avoiding this thread if we don't want to see it or comment on it. Let's keep it up. This one thread isn't going to bring our board down, it's just not in the place it would normally be. Work with me guys and girls. Thank you.

When this thread has run it's course it will be deleted.

 

[spike05rk]

I heard Allen is transferring!
OFC

 

[Dattier]

Ok but it makes it ok for a man to go in a woman's bathroom

Transwomen aren't men by any criterion but the one thing we're not looking at in restrooms.

 

[Dattier]

When this thread has run it's course it will be deleted.

Can it just be locked instead?

Thanks for your understanding, flexibility, and monitoring in the meantime.

 

[spike05rk]

I think it pretty much has ran it's course. What else can be said about this? Whatever side you take with this law you are not going to change the other sides mind or opinion. On a brighter note Duke football starts soon. Go Duke! OFC

 

[gottagonow]

I love grilling out, especially beef, pork, chicken, fish, vegetables and pineapple.

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

I love grilling out, especially beef, pork, chicken and fish.

Gas or charcoal? I prefer charcoal myself, pretty much grill every night it doesn't rain.

 

[LetsGoDuke301]

Since this thread has been tagged already, I want to go OT here and say that as a brother of an honorable sheriff's deputy I am concerned and disgusted over the latest attack on officers in Baton Rouge. Six shot and three dead. All this kind of violence does is threaten the safety of everyone.

 

[spike05rk]

My son-in-law is in law enforcement and I pray for him and all law enforcement everyday.

 

[skysdad]

I love grilling out, especially beef, pork, chicken, fish, vegetables and pineapple.

There's lots of ways you can grill. There's pork ribs, beef ribs, wings, shrimp, burgers, lobster, corn, squash, tomato, lamb, venison, bison, turkey, duck, oysters on the shell, clams on the shell, scallops, mussels on the shell, hot dogs, bratwurst, Itallion sausage, pig, broccoli, mushrooms, ... that's all I can think of right now. OFC

 

[df64]

I used to be in the camp of why do these special groups (gays, people of color, woman) need special laws and "extra" protection. Our legal system/constitution spells out equality for all, doesn't it? Then I went for my second masters in Social Work. Not because I was a liberal, wanted to stand up for the oppressed, or was motivated by any social cause. I did it as a logical career move. Wasn't looking out for anyone but me.

I spent the first month or so getting pissed. I was feeling marginalized, discriminated against, attacked. I belonged to the group of Great White Male oppressor. Bullshit! I was the nicest guy I knew! I didn't harm anyone. I treated everyone equally. I was a good son to my widowed mother. Hell, I moved back home after graduating college to "take care or my mother and little sister." I worked since I was 14. Saved my money and went to college to better my chances. I did not appreciate it when it was more than just inferred that I had "unearned" advantages. I could go on and on, but won't.

Then, I just started to listen. Really listened. What I found is that our social, legal, government systems, etc. really screw what is referred to as oppressed groups: Woman, children, people of color, and LBGTs. My intention is not to claim any high moral ground or out argue anyone. What I would suggest is to really study this and other issues. I did. Multiple case studies detailing how our legal system does NOT protect members of these groups. And, after my 60 plus credit masters in social work, my opinions changed. Members of these groups need more from us than not being directly harmed by us. Being a good guy who respects everyone is not enough.

 

[smashmouth5]

I will be perfectly honest, people of color offend me...I HATE BABY BLUE.

 

[Dattier]

I used to be in the camp of why do these special groups (gays, people of color, woman) need special laws and "extra" protection. Our legal system/constitution spells out equality for all, doesn't it? Then I went for my second masters in Social Work. Not because I was a liberal, wanted to stand up for the oppressed, or was motivated by any social cause. I did it as a logical career move. Wasn't looking out for anyone but me.

I spent the first month or so getting pissed. I was feeling marginalized, discriminated against, attacked. I belonged to the group of Great White Male oppressor. Bullshit! I was the nicest guy I knew! I didn't harm anyone. I treated everyone equally. I was a good son to my widowed mother. Hell, I moved back home after graduating college to "take care or my mother and little sister." I worked since I was 14. Saved my money and went to college to better my chances. I did not appreciate it when it was more than just inferred that I had "unearned" advantages. I could go on and on, but won't.

Then, I just started to listen. Really listened. What I found is that our social, legal, government systems, etc. really screw what is referred to as oppressed groups: Woman, children, people of color, and LBGTs. My intention is not to claim any high moral ground or out argue anyone. What I would suggest is to really study this and other issues. I did. Multiple case studies detailing how our legal system does NOT protect members of these groups. And, after my 60 plus credit masters in social work, my opinions changed. Members of these groups need more from us than not being directly harmed by us. Being a good guy who respects everyone is not enough.

Thanks for sharing that, df. It's a great post, but two things stand out in particular. One, your personal story and growth into new awareness is a good model for connecting w/ others who don't really see it. I mean, we all have our struggles and we all work hard, more or less, so when we hear a statement about how things we have no control of have given us advantages, we bristle. It's pretty natural. I wish we could go back to Peggy McIntyre and convince her to use different language. Two, in your last couple sentences, I very much agree that it is not enough to treat everybody well. We have to help make up ground for those who haven't been treated well.

 

[skysdad]

I think there should be more bathrooms for senior citizens only. There are just not enough of them whether it's grocery stores, big box stores, parks, sports stadiums, amusement parks, golf course, airports, walking tracks, gyms, churches, rest areas, beaches, swimming pools, malls, shopping venues, restaurants, movie theaters, Washington, D.C. tourist area, airplanes, concert halls. I could go on and on and on but when you gotta go you gotta go. OFC

 

[gottagonow]

There's lots of ways you can grill. There's pork ribs, beef ribs, wings, shrimp, burgers, lobster, corn, squash, tomato, lamb, venison, bison, turkey, duck, oysters on the shell, clams on the shell, scallops, mussels on the shell, hot dogs, bratwurst, Itallion sausage, pig, broccoli, mushrooms, ... that's all I can think of right now. OFC

Gas or charcoal? I prefer charcoal myself, pretty much grill every night it doesn't rain.

I'm a gas guy myself, usually because it's so easy to fire up and start cooking. I bought one of the small Weber kettle grills last year for charcoal but I quickly remembered why I like gas so much, no waiting. If you are with good friends and have time and have beer charcoal is better.

 

[spike05rk]

Nothing better than a burger cooked on a charcoal grill.
OFC

 

[spike05rk]

Who do you think will be our leading scorer this year? I think Tatum.
OFC