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Time to Go Back to the Beginning....

Wolfman2610

Recruit
May 26, 2014
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Sorry, was watching "The Princess Bride".

It is very apparent that 2015 was the exception and not the rule.

The OAD system does not fit this program or K...

So, even though it won't be as much fun on signing day, we need to strongly consider abandoning the one and done philosophy and instead try to build like Virginia, Nova, and other schools that rely less on physical talent and more on established chemistry.

Again, I will miss having a top-3 NBA draft pick player every season, but in the long term interests of the program, a change in strategy needs to happen or else, we're going to be yelling about the same crap every year.

And if anyone interprets this as complaining or being a troll; it's not intended that way. It's just an observation regarding what has worked and what has not during my time as a fan.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result....By now, we have found out that OAD is a losing formula.
 
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What I wrote was incredibly polite, did not attack a single player or coach, and even clarified that it was not an attempt to kick the program when it was down. I thought it was a rather innocent remark

Look at the last few years and then tell me if you don't see a difference between the maturity of the featured players versus the maturity of the guys that were part of the other title teams.

2018: Bagley (Fr.)
2017: Tatum (Fr.)
2016: Ingram (Fr.)
2015: Okafor (Fr.)
2014: Parker (Fr.)
2013: Plumlee (Sr.)
2012: Rivers (Fr.)
2011: Smith (Sr.)....Would have been a good team if Irving had stayed healthy

2010: Smith (Jr)/Scheyer (Sr.
2001: Battier (Sr.)
1992: Laettner (Sr.)/Hurley (Jr.)
1991: Laettner (Jr.)

This team works best when the person you are featuring is an upperclassman....And then you have talented freshmen and sophomore surrounding them as second and third options.

I believe K's system requires time to learn and to run properly....You can't get that if your players hardly every get a chance to play together for more than a year.

It's not an attack on anyone....It's a belief that the philosophy is not a good fit for what K does well. He is a teacher who preaches a team first mentality..

Look at the Virginia roster.....You need to go pretty far down before you see a true freshman playing any minutes....Those two or three years spent playing together pay off, especially on defense.
 
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If you think K is going to stop recruiting the best players that’s crazy. Pretend your Coach K and a player like Jayson Tatum says Coach I want to come play for you. If your K do you say no. This isn’t like 2009 with Kyle Singler or 1994 with Grant Hill. Those types of players don’t stay in school for 4 years. It’s not happening
 
And if DUKE doesn't get upset by USC in a road game last year they probably get to the final four.

One game elimination games are always hard.... Can't win every year. For crying out loud there's what's what... 200 plus D1 schools... Only TWO have won a title more recently than Duke, get a clue!
 
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It's not like any other team is consistently winning national championships either, can't win them all and this one ain't over yet. Though it's not trending good.
 
Duke has had 3 teams that were largely based on OADs. One of those won the national title and another one of those teams is still competing yet your already calling them a failure? Sheesh.

You're the troll what he wrote is what many believe. Go out your head in the sand
 
Some act like all these other schools who "don't do the OAD system" wouldn't want these classes we've been getting. They don't do the OAD system because they can't recruit many OAD players in a single class. And K isn't doing anything new. He's always been recruiting the best players in each class - we're just missing out on less now. This is not so much a Duke/K thing as it is a college basketball thing.
 
In my opinion, its not about the One and Dones, its about the kids that leave the program. K needs to recruit kids that fully buy in and are willing to wait their turn like Nolan and Quinn. The program would be in better shape if the Semi and Derryk Thornton's of the world stick around, wait their turn and get integrated with the younger guys. This team would be a better team if we had a junior point guard playing with Grayson. Im looking at Bolden and Javin as guys we could really build around for next year, but its likely that Bolden will leave at try to max out whatever his place is in the league. O'Connel, Goldwire, Javin, and Jack White are good centerpieces for Duke moving forward, but with a 4 one and done recruiting class, where does that leave our future?
 
Recruiting like we have been isn't the problem. We just need that missing piece, that extension of the coach on the floor, that Hurley, Tyus, or Duhon. Seriously, think about how good we'd be with Joel Berry running things out there. All this talent is great, but they have no keeper. There's no reason why we shouldn't always have a heady lead guard with vision. That used to define Duke.
 
Recruiting like we have been isn't the problem. We just need that missing piece, that extension of the coach on the floor, that Hurley, Tyus, or Duhon. Seriously, think about how good we'd be with Joel Berry running things out there. All this talent is great, but they have no keeper. There's no reason why we shouldn't always have a heady lead guard with vision. That used to define Duke.

Exactly. The main problem isn't our OAD's on the floor; it's Grayson - we need him to be the player we know he's capable of being.
 
What I wrote was incredibly polite, did not attack a single player or coach, and even clarified that it was not an attempt to kick the program when it was down. I thought it was a rather innocent remark

Look at the last few years and then tell me if you don't see a difference between the maturity of the featured players versus the maturity of the guys that were part of the other title teams.

2018: Bagley (Fr.)
2017: Tatum (Fr.)
2016: Ingram (Fr.)
2015: Okafor (Fr.)
2014: Parker (Fr.)
2013: Plumlee (Sr.)
2012: Rivers (Fr.)
2011: Smith (Sr.)....Would have been a good team if Irving had stayed healthy

2010: Smith (Jr)/Scheyer (Sr.
2001: Battier (Sr.)
1992: Laettner (Sr.)/Hurley (Jr.)
1991: Laettner (Jr.)

This team works best when the person you are featuring is an upperclassman....And then you have talented freshmen and sophomore surrounding them as second and third options.

I believe K's system requires time to learn and to run properly....You can't get that if your players hardly every get a chance to play together for more than a year.

It's not an attack on anyone....It's a belief that the philosophy is not a good fit for what K does well. He is a teacher who preaches a team first mentality..

Look at the Virginia roster.....You need to go pretty far down before you see a true freshman playing any minutes....Those two or three years spent playing together pay off, especially on defense.

I don't totally disagree with your premise, but I still insist there's a few flawed arguments you made.

1) Last season we weren't nearly as young as we are this season. We had two seniors who played vital roles on a national championship team, as well as a junior All-American. In addition to that, we had a sophomore who turned himself into an All-American. Jayson Tatum was really the only featured freshman last season, and at times Frank Jackson played like that. Harry Giles, while a one-and-done player, never played more than 20 minutes in a game because of his past injuries. Lastly, it was never expected that Luke Kennard and Frank Jackson wouldn't be on this team. Those kinds of things are factors.

2) In 2016, I think one could argue that Grayson was our 'best' player, along with Brandon Ingram.

3) I don't have to explain 2015. Our three three freshmen were our 'best' players, but Quinn was clearly the most important.

4) I think you're cherry-picking 2010 a little. Do you remember how frustrating 2007, 2008 and 2009 were? I have a sneaking suspicion you were probably complaining then, too. But maybe I'm wrong. In those three season's prior to our '10 championship, we were much more limited than we are today.

5) Going back much farther is useless. Times change. Christian Laettner and Grant Hill don't play in college for four years today. That doesn't mean we don't wish we hadn't recruited them.

6) Both 2014 and 2012 were, by and large, veteran teams. It's just that each of those season's a freshman was our best player. We didn't lose to Lehigh or Mercer because of that. I get that it helps your argument much better, but you don't seriously believe that, do you?

6) I don't like the one-and-done era, either. Not because Duke has invested so much in it, but because I just think it's a stupid rule that benefits the NBA. The more frustrating thing for me is that we haven't been very good in the postseason since 2004, with the exception of 2010, 2013 and 2015. So taking a look back from 2005 through 2017, and taking out those three aforementioned (leaving 10 other seasons), we've prematurely exited the tournament, IMO, those years. In 2005 through 2009, we didn't have a single freshman who left after one year, and just once (Singler's freshman year), was a freshman one of our top three scorers. What's the excuse for that? In 2011, we remember Kyrie's injury....unfortunate but revisionist history. I've mentioned the two embarrassing year's, so I'll refrain from bringing it up again. Then there's the last two years. Frustrating, I get that. But both years weren't freshman-dominated teams....in fact, neither were.

My point? Postseason success hasn't been what I feel it should be. But let's not pretend it's been one issue. We've done it every which way. It's just that the 'current' way, which features more prominent freshman, is what sits in our mind the most. I posted on this board from 2005-09....it wasn't pretty, specifically 2007-09.
 
I never want to go back to 07-09 again, we had a 0% chance of winning a national championship those years.
Don't get me wrong, the past seasons have been frustrating, but everyone knows we are the most talented team, and we definitely still have a chance of a national championship. Give me this roller coaster/heart attack/craziness over the boredom that was 07-09.
 
Fair points, Jay....I may disagree in some spots, but I think for the most part, we agree more than disagree in principle.

And I am not so much complaining as I am wishing for a return to an older, more classic time....I became a Duke fan as an 8-year-old boy watching those Laettner and Hurley-led teams...

As a Duke fan on a Duke forum, I obviously focused my comments to be centered around them in particular. But in truth, my feelings extend to the nation as a whole....I just don't like any system that makes it harder/impossible to establish rapport with your fellow man.

It's no one fault....It's just not possible to have a cohesive unit most years under this kind of time crunch.
 
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The one and done approach does not cut it. 2015 they caught lightning in a bottle, because Okafor, Winslow and Tyus Jones especially were more mature beyond their years. They bought into the team concept. These guys view this as a showcase to get themselves to the NBA. They don't buy in, don't have the passion and pride for the school because the school for them is a stepping stone into the league. Duke/UNC doesnt mean the same to Brandon Engram, Marvin Bagley, Wendell Carter like it did to JJ Redick, Shane Battier, and Jay Williams. To the supposed advantage in the post over UNC and to give up 20 offensive rebounds is an absolute embarrassment. GET A BODY ON SOMEONE. Grayson Allen is not a leader, what kind of PG in a crucial possession drives himself to the baseline and then has to make a hail mary pass back out to the perimeter cutting off most of his angle? They will once again be lucky to get out of the first weekend this year. Experience matters in college basketball. They have zero.
 
And I am not so much complaining as I am wishing for a return to an older, more classic time....I became a Duke fan as an 8-year-old boy watching those Laettner and Hurley-led teams...

Those were easy times to become a Duke fan, as well. The run we had was insane. Unfortunately, that's what a lot of fans try and compare to.

We haven't been as good, postseason-wise, as what we should have been the last 13 years, but it's still resulted in two national championships. That's how spoiled we've become.
 
We are very spoiled, we've only lost 5 games and our season is over? How many other teams wish they only had 5 losses.
 
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Recruiting like we have been isn't the problem. We just need that missing piece, that extension of the coach on the floor, that Hurley, Tyus, or Duhon. Seriously, think about how good we'd be with Joel Berry running things out there. All this talent is great, but they have no keeper. There's no reason why we shouldn't always have a heady lead guard with vision. That used to define Duke.
Joel Berry was not very good as a freshman.Tyus was not expecting to be be an OAD but went when we won the NC.K or any other coach is going to get the best players he can.Berry is still at Unc because the NBA doesn’t want him.There is a very good chance that the OAD’s will be over in the very near future so all of this may be a moot point
 
Every. Single. Coach. in America would trade their last three recruiting classes for ours. Coaches recruit to get the most talent. If you want to make the argument that we aren't getting out of them what we should be, then fine. But I never want to see Coach K take a lessor talent in hopes that the kid can stay around longer. He needs to do better with the incredible talent he is getting.
I hope one and done goes away. I hope Coach K continues to rake in incredible talent.
 
Joel Berry was not very good as a freshman.Tyus was not expecting to be be an OAD but went when we won the NC.K or any other coach is going to get the best players he can.Berry is still at Unc because the NBA doesn’t want him.There is a very good chance that the OAD’s will be over in the very near future so all of this may be a moot point

Well you know what? I want players like Berry that the NBA "doesn't want" because he's pretty damn good. Seniors should not be as extinct as Dinosaurs in Durham.

But hey fear not, we'll have a brand new team next year with scores of new faces so we can muddle through the season, win the usual 20+ games, struggle to defend, endure 3 or 4 bad losses to teams we should beat, finish out of first place (yet again) and end up losing by the second weekend at best. It's not even ONE and DONE at Duke, it's ONE AND NONE as in NO TITLES. Yea I won't put up a fight when a rival says K underachieves with his talent of late. He does, he does because he's dived in head first into a system of recruiting that really isn't good for him imo. 2015 was fool's gold and the only thing preventing it from looking like a dumpster fire in Durham right now.
 
Every. Single. Coach. in America would trade their last three recruiting classes for ours. Coaches recruit to get the most talent. If you want to make the argument that we aren't getting out of them what we should be, then fine. But I never want to see Coach K take a lessor talent in hopes that the kid can stay around longer. He needs to do better with the incredible talent he is getting.
I hope one and done goes away. I hope Coach K continues to rake in incredible talent.

Yea but would they trade for the results those three classes produced? Roy Williams wouldn't....
 
Yea but would they trade for the results those three classes produced? Roy Williams wouldn't....
No, but that is hindsight. Roy would have traded classes with Coach K because he would have believed those classes would give him the best chance to win.
 
Well you know what? I want players like Berry that the NBA "doesn't want" because he's pretty damn good. Seniors should not be as extinct as Dinosaurs in Durham.

But hey fear not, we'll have a brand new team next year with scores of new faces so we can muddle through the season, win the usual 20+ games, struggle to defend, endure 3 or 4 bad losses to teams we should beat, finish out of first place (yet again) and end up losing by the second weekend at best. It's not even ONE and DONE at Duke, it's ONE AND NONE as in NO TITLES. Yea I won't put up a fight when a rival says K underachieves with his talent of late. He does, he does because he's dived in head first into a system of recruiting that really isn't good for him imo. 2015 was fool's gold and the only thing preventing it from looking like a dumpster fire in Durham right now.

Isn't this really the first time we've had this situation ever at Duke? Last season only one of the freshmen was a full-time starter and he was surrounded by primarily upperclassmen.

I get what you're saying about the seniors. I'd love more of them. We have had three in the last four years who were all 1,000+ point scorers, but I'm not sure who the next one will be. Maybe Alex O'Connell?
 
Yea but would they trade for the results those three classes produced? Roy Williams wouldn't....
You mean after the fact? The national champion wouldn't trade places with someone? My gawd, how do you do it? You make it look so easy.
 
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The one and done approach does not cut it. 2015 they caught lightning in a bottle, because Okafor, Winslow and Tyus Jones especially were more mature beyond their years. They bought into the team concept. These guys view this as a showcase to get themselves to the NBA. They don't buy in, don't have the passion and pride for the school because the school for them is a stepping stone into the league. Duke/UNC doesnt mean the same to Brandon Engram, Marvin Bagley, Wendell Carter like it did to JJ Redick, Shane Battier, and Jay Williams. To the supposed advantage in the post over UNC and to give up 20 offensive rebounds is an absolute embarrassment. GET A BODY ON SOMEONE. Grayson Allen is not a leader, what kind of PG in a crucial possession drives himself to the baseline and then has to make a hail mary pass back out to the perimeter cutting off most of his angle? They will once again be lucky to get out of the first weekend this year. Experience matters in college basketball. They have zero.
That's a lot of assumptions about the character of a bunch of our players, and all negative.
 
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Every. Single. Coach. in America would trade their last three recruiting classes for ours. Coaches recruit to get the most talent. If you want to make the argument that we aren't getting out of them what we should be, then fine. But I never want to see Coach K take a lessor talent in hopes that the kid can stay around longer. He needs to do better with the incredible talent he is getting.
I hope one and done goes away. I hope Coach K continues to rake in incredible talent.

I'm not sure they would. UVA and Villanova seem to be doing quite well picking up talented players who become really good over time and blending them in with good recruits over the 4 years. They get high level basketball but also consistency on both ends of the court + upper-class leadership. I would say KS does too despite their struggles this year. I think there is a happy medium where you can recruit good players and not sell your soul or compromise the core values of the program just to land OAD players. Some coaches play the long game and it works.
 
Well you know what? I want players like Berry that the NBA "doesn't want" because he's pretty damn good. Seniors should not be as extinct as Dinosaurs in Durham.

But hey fear not, we'll have a brand new team next year with scores of new faces so we can muddle through the season, win the usual 20+ games, struggle to defend, endure 3 or 4 bad losses to teams we should beat, finish out of first place (yet again) and end up losing by the second weekend at best. It's not even ONE and DONE at Duke, it's ONE AND NONE as in NO TITLES. Yea I won't put up a fight when a rival says K underachieves with his talent of late. He does, he does because he's dived in head first into a system of recruiting that really isn't good for him imo. 2015 was fool's gold and the only thing preventing it from looking like a dumpster fire in Durham right now.
We had two seniors and a Junior last year.That team was decimated by injuries and lost to a team that was playing out of their minds and went on a run that took them to the FF.Your suggestion is that K stop recruiting the top talent in the country.That is a sure recipe for success.
 
This team can still get on a roll. Come March, we don't need to be saying we have the highest ceiling. We need to soon bust thru the da*% ceiling! We know what the major problems are, and K does as well, but we can't do a thing about it but vent, cuss, debate, and argue amongst each other.
If we don't do well this season, it is more than fair to say the one and done model K has gone with the last 2 seasons won't work.
Let's be real about the 15 title team. First off, Okafor was the only one recruited as a one and done. Then the suspension of Sulaimon united the team. Then remember we had multiple veterans on that team.
I'm sure other schools would love to have the talent K does, but teams like UVA maximize out what they do get. It's very arguable that the 16-17 team and so far this one haven't. That is the problem. These kids we are bringing in are the elite of their class, so with everyone pumping them up, it escalates when they fall short of the lofty expectations that have been placed on them.
Maybe the rules will change, I don't know, but a part of me equates what K has done with bringing in 4 at one time to going thru the buffet line. You fill your plate with so much, sit down at the table and realize you can't eat all this food that you piled on your plate.
 
Sooo, we calling up Roy and giving him Tre Jones, RJ, Cam and Zion? See if we can land some 3 stars? Y’all won’t be bitching about OAD’s when we look like Nitro Circus out there next season, lol.
 
I have a few games recorded from earlier in the season and watched a few minutes tonight. The body language from then and now is different and the swag and confidence just doesn't seem the same. I know defense has been an issue all season but I just wonder if it's part a freshman slump and teams just having more film to study on us.
 
Anyone unilaterally questioning the heart and commitment of OAD players should read Brandon Ingram's goodbye letter to Duke. And then you ought to get that hatefulness out of your heart. I don't know... go for a walk or something... take a puppy to church...

And if it's actually a re-read, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
 
I don't think it has anything to do with one and done. All championship teams improve and come together as a team as the season progresses. This Duke team still has time but has not shown improvement on defense and turnovers. It's sad that Duke had such an advantage inside against Carolina and can't run a play to get the ball to the bigs in the second half.
 
Anyone unilaterally questioning the heart and commitment of OAD players should read Brandon Ingram's goodbye letter to Duke. And then you ought to get that hatefulness out of your heart. I don't know... go for a walk or something... take a puppy to church...

And if it's actually a re-read, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Or watch Bagley’s interview after the game Thursday and then question their heart or desire.Very few on this board know what it takes to compete at this level yet still free to castigate a 19 year old kid
 
That's a lot of assumptions about the character of a bunch of our players, and all negative.

Sorry if you don't like it, but this is what is translating on the court. Not enough senior leadership. Too many young guys to rely on. No excuse to get outrebounded on the offensive boards like they did. That is really an indictment of effort when guys are 7 feet tall going up with one hand to snag a rebound. Those of you painting some rosy picture about this team, it's insane. Like no one is allowed to speak negatively about them. This team has alot of issues, they defend poorly, get beat on the boards, struggle in man to man.
 
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Personally I think many expect too much from a new group of Freshmen that make up your teams every year. The fact is these kids have never played a lick of defense thier whole life. They've played so much ball on the AAU circuit that particular style of play can't be removed in a 4 month stay in College. Lastly a College game means absolutely nothing to these 1@dones. Many of these kids only have 6-7 weeks of classes to attend and then they'll become millionaires. What 18 year old with that future windfall could really care about playing for free.
 
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