Time to Go Back to the Beginning....

[Mac9192]

I get both sides of this debate. As a UNC fan, I've been one of the few who has been vocally frustrated that Roy has not been able to land higher caliber talent and to some degree it has caught up to us. I remember when he basically could land whoever he wanted, basically what K is doing now.

Roy was also landing monster recruiting classes before the OAD era really took off. Guys like Lawson, Hansbrough, Ellington, etc. stuck around. That works against him now. K took advantage of something that Kentucky more or less started and now the top 3 players are going to Durham next year.

On the other hand, I can also see the argument that OAD is pretty hit or miss. Yeah, I want 5 star talent, but I can't deny how happy I am to see Luke Maye really develop into an All-ACC caliber player. I enjoy seeing guys like Berry and Theo stick around and become favorites.

On the other hand, you're not going to win nattys with three stars. I was not happy with our latest class and talent is talent. Even if it sticks around for only a year, you still want the best players.

Bottom line: I've never liked OAD and not just because Carolina hasn't been benefiting from it. I think it's bad for the college game in general.

Ol Roy may be missing on the one and done, but he seems to be getting the most out of his talent. His philosophy to keep playing kids so they will be ready by March is working. That's a fact, even though I despise the Holes.
He's having one of his best coaching years in my opinion, and I can't stand it.

 

[statelinecock]

I guess you could say UNC has a 5* talent right now in Maye. He puts up 5 star numbers and they couldn't run him off with a pitchfork. The NBA could care less what he does so he's happy to get 20 and 10 on a regular basis in College. I guess you could say his world is College Ball. The true 1@dones world is getting to the NBA quickly as possible. Naturally he's going to play like a madman because he loves where he's at.

 

[Jtre]

Wow, there is a lot going on in this thread. It's almost the perfect embodiment of what is wrong with social media discussion, as damn near everyone is on one of two extreme sides and there seems to be no room for middle ground.

I'll take a look at both sides through comments of some of the most extreme folks.

-- I'll give Neue Regal credit: He's mad and he's shitting on basically everyone and everything. At least he's consistent.

Here's the problem with his take: K's "one and done" model isn't a failure.

He won a National title and followed it up with a Sweet 16. When he won a National title in 92, the next year was a second round exit. Won a title in 01, the next year was the Sweet 16. Won a title in 10, the next year was the Sweet 16. That's a trend.

It should be noted that the 2016 Devils weren't a OAD-heavy team. Ingram was the only one and Thornton transferred.

Last year's team isn't proof of anything other than a team who's frontcourt gets decimated by injuries and who's veteran leader in the backcourt mentally goes off the rails is going to struggle.

This year's team has been up and down. It should be noted, however, when people talk about all the experience the 2015 squad brought back as opposed to this one, it should be noted the similarity in sheer numbers and talent. The difference is Allen has failed in his Quinn Cook role and Bolden and DeLaurier have simply not progressed in as well as Jefferson and Jones.

--The flip side of Neue is the, "man-up, we're good!" stuff.

Showenuff seems to be really good at that. The part I noticed and really keyed on is when he mocked some of the frustrated folks by telling them they'll sound different when we look like a Nitro Circus (whatever the hell that means).

That is the biggest problem, and one of the reasons so many Kentucky fans have walked around miserable during the season for much of John Calipari's tenure there. Some people, typically the loudest and most annoying in the crowd, have this idea that a bunch of highly-touted freshmen are going to gel right out of the blocks and start rolling every team they face, including ones comprised of solid, fairly-talented upperclassmen who have been playing together for multiple years.

That rarely happens right away, yet here we are. Duke has three freshmen with NBA All-star potential and a senior guard who has spent most of his career as a National POTY candidate and Show is talking about wait until next year.

It's February. By the time November rolls around, so many of the folks will have worked themselves into a frenzy that they will lose their minds the first time Duke looks pedestrian.

--The OP made some mentions about getting back to the Duke teams of his childhood and a return to those types of players and years.

I'm sorry to tell you, but that's not happening and it has nothing to do with the players and everything to do with getting older. I've been a life-long Duke fan and I can tell you without a moment's hesitation that K will not bring in another player in his time at Duke that will mean as much to me as Bobby Hurley, Grant Hill or Jason Williams. Hell, as much as I like Bagley it's possible he won't ever hold a bigger place in my heart than Robert Brickey.

That's because I'm a grown man with a wife, child, career and all that adult-stuff. My son is two, however, so I can see that individual attachment returning through him as he gets older.

--Lastly, I want to address what I see as an elephant in the room.

Everyone talks about the OAD freshmen being the problem, and they talk about buy-in and heart and all that stuff. The reality is the biggest failure and letdown on this year's team as well as last year's is Grayson Allen.

I'm sure some of it is Grayson built up good will from the 2015 title game, as he should have, but it's hard for me not to think there is other stuff at play.

Quite frankly, many of the people here probably cut Allen some slack because, in their minds, he harkens back to what they think Duke basketball is, or at least should be. They see him as a white, hated guard who stuck around four years out of love for the jersey and want so bad for him to be the latest in their line of favorites.

The problem is, he's not JJ or Hurley or Scheyer. In fact, with the way he's disappeared and disappointed over the last two years he's a hell of a lot closer to being Ricky Price with better numbers than the three guys I mentioned.

I doubt, however, he would be defended in such a manner if he looked like Ricky Price.

 

[jwill133]

Wow, there is a lot going on in this thread. It's almost the perfect embodiment of what is wrong with social media discussion, as damn near everyone is on one of two extreme sides and there seems to be no room for middle ground.

I'll take a look at both sides through comments of some of the most extreme folks.

-- I'll give Neue Regal credit: He's mad and he's shitting on basically everyone and everything. At least he's consistent.

Here's the problem with his take: K's "one and done" model isn't a failure.

He won a National title and followed it up with a Sweet 16. When he won a National title in 92, the next year was a second round exit. Won a title in 01, the next year was the Sweet 16. Won a title in 10, the next year was the Sweet 16. That's a trend.

It should be noted that the 2016 Devils weren't a OAD-heavy team. Ingram was the only one and Thornton transferred.

Last year's team isn't proof of anything other than a team who's frontcourt gets decimated by injuries and who's veteran leader in the backcourt mentally goes off the rails is going to struggle.

This year's team has been up and down. It should be noted, however, when people talk about all the experience the 2015 squad brought back as opposed to this one, it should be noted the similarity in sheer numbers and talent. The difference is Allen has failed in his Quinn Cook role and Bolden and DeLaurier have simply not progressed in as well as Jefferson and Jones.

--The flip side of Neue is the, "man-up, we're good!" stuff.

Showenuff seems to be really good at that. The part I noticed and really keyed on is when he mocked some of the frustrated folks by telling them they'll sound different when we look like a Nitro Circus (whatever the hell that means).

That is the biggest problem, and one of the reasons so many Kentucky fans have walked around miserable during the season for much of John Calipari's tenure there. Some people, typically the loudest and most annoying in the crowd, have this idea that a bunch of highly-touted freshmen are going to gel right out of the blocks and start rolling every team they face, including ones comprised of solid, fairly-talented upperclassmen who have been playing together for multiple years.

That rarely happens right away, yet here we are. Duke has three freshmen with NBA All-star potential and a senior guard who has spent most of his career as a National POTY candidate and Show is talking about wait until next year.

It's February. By the time November rolls around, so many of the folks will have worked themselves into a frenzy that they will lose their minds the first time Duke looks pedestrian.

--The OP made some mentions about getting back to the Duke teams of his childhood and a return to those types of players and years.

I'm sorry to tell you, but that's not happening and it has nothing to do with the players and everything to do with getting older. I've been a life-long Duke fan and I can tell you without a moment's hesitation that K will not bring in another player in his time at Duke that will mean as much to me as Bobby Hurley, Grant Hill or Jason Williams. Hell, as much as I like Bagley it's possible he won't ever hold a bigger place in my heart than Robert Brickey.

That's because I'm a grown man with a wife, child, career and all that adult-stuff. My son is two, however, so I can see that individual attachment returning through him as he gets older.

--Lastly, I want to address what I see as an elephant in the room.

Everyone talks about the OAD freshmen being the problem, and they talk about buy-in and heart and all that stuff. The reality is the biggest failure and letdown on this year's team as well as last year's is Grayson Allen.

I'm sure some of it is Grayson built up good will from the 2015 title game, as he should have, but it's hard for me not to think there is other stuff at play.

Quite frankly, many of the people here probably cut Allen some slack because, in their minds, he harkens back to what they think Duke basketball is, or at least should be. They see him as a white, hated guard who stuck around four years out of love for the jersey and want so bad for him to be the latest in their line of favorites.

The problem is, he's not JJ or Hurley or Scheyer. In fact, with the way he's disappeared and disappointed over the last two years he's a hell of a lot closer to being Ricky Price with better numbers than the three guys I mentioned.

I doubt, however, he would be defended in such a manner if he looked like Ricky Price.

Post of the year? I say yes.

I find it hilarious the amount of negative things said on here about Duval as compared to Grayson. When quite frankly, Duval has given us just as much (if not more) than Grayson has this year.

It's so easy to point fingers at our "young studs" "young freshman" "kids" etc. When in reality, this team has failed for many reasons, but probably the biggest is that our senior captain hasn't given us much of anything.
What is most annoying of all, is the amount of excuses that the Senior captain gets..."if only Duval knew how to make a kickout pass" "if only our guys played team ball" "our guys need to stop caring about their draft selection".

 

[GillJET]

Jesus Christ, now here comes race into the equation. I think most, and damn near close to all, Duke fans just want to win. Doesn’t matter if the player is black or white.

 

[QC Dukie]

Jesus Christ, now here comes race into the equation. I think most, and damn near close to all, Duke fans just want to win. Doesn’t matter if the player is black or white.

Now that is the post of the year. Not the one above. Thank you!

 

[Dattier]

Jesus Christ, now here comes race into the equation. I think most, and damn near close to all, Duke fans just want to win. Doesn’t matter if the player is black or white.

On a conscious level, yes. There's an awful lot of subconscious, institutionalized stuff related to race, though.

In any event, it was one thing mentioned in a pretty long post. You have some control of whether it becomes a bigger focus in this conversation or not.

 

[Dattier]

I'll take a look at both sides through comments of some of the most extreme folks.

 

[jwill133]

Jesus Christ, now here comes race into the equation. I think most, and damn near close to all, Duke fans just want to win. Doesn’t matter if the player is black or white.

I was acknowledging the post in its entirety, the best points of the post was about how we perform in the years following a national title, combined with the fact that we haven’t had as many OAD dependent teams as most say we do.

As far as Duval and Grayson, can I point out that there is a 3 page thread about benching Duval but crickets about Grayson? When their level of play has been about even, with a case being made Duval has actually given us more this past month.

The starting lineup is one of the few things we don’t need to touch. Every game minus UVA, we have jumped out to early leads, seem to always be leading around the 12 minute mark, usually by more than 5.
That’s why I believe it’s stupid to call for a change. Now, do we need to get more creative lineup combinations, yes definitely!
The 3 big lineup against UNC wasn’t too effective, but I think it’s worth another look. Have we tried playing without Grayson and Bagley on the floor all year? Why not try Trevon, Alex, Gary, Wendell, Marques.

Maybe Trevon and Jordan together? Haven’t seen that since MSU I believe.

 

[christophero]

Playing Duval and Goldwire together is interesting. Honestly didn't think of that.

 

[Jtre]

Jesus Christ, now here comes race into the equation. I think most, and damn near close to all, Duke fans just want to win. Doesn’t matter if the player is black or white.

For the record, I was not calling anyone a racist. I appreciate the people who realized I was talking about the perception and treatment of Grayson Allen being more a subconscious thing than anything else. Hell, one could argue that seeing Allen as a potential leader in and of itself was based mostly on subconscious thoughts and/or leadership stereotypes.

All that said, race might be a bigger issue to you than you would like to admit if your first (and only) reaction to that entire post was to immediately discredit by saying absolutely nothing and then jump to the defense off all the white fans who don't care about race.

 

[GillJET]

On a conscious level, yes. There's an awful lot of subconscious, institutionalized stuff related to race, though.

In any event, it was one thing mentioned in a pretty long post. You have some control of whether it becomes a bigger focus in this conversation or not.

I would say race was definitely a major focus of his post and a major message he was trying to get across. Because he chose to conclude his long thought out post with a comment about how he doubts Ricky Price would be defended the same way Grayson is.

 

[kingbluedevil]

I think we stay with the starters but pull starters once they start playing poorly . It maybe someone different every game. At any level sitting and watching can benefit. Win or lose get the bench involved

 

[GillJET]

For the record, I was not calling anyone a racist. I appreciate the people who realized I was talking about the perception and treatment of Grayson Allen being more a subconscious thing than anything else. Hell, one could argue that seeing Allen as a potential leader in and of itself was based mostly on subconscious thoughts and/or leadership stereotypes.

All that said, race might be a bigger issue to you than you would like to admit if your first (and only) reaction to that entire post was to immediately discredit by saying absolutely nothing and then jump to the defense off all the white fans who don't care about race.

I’m not discrediting your post. I just didn’t care for how you brought race into it. I enjoyed your post until the end when you make it race-centric.

 

[GillJET]

Yeah JWill, I like the part about lineup combinations. Looks like we will get that opportunity with no Bagley tonight.

 

[kingbluedevil]

Ricky price never showed promise like Grayson has. At times Allen has been unstoppable and was a major factor in the 2015 championship

 

[Dattier]

I would say race was definitely a major focus of his post and a major message he was trying to get across. Because he chose to conclude his long thought out post with a comment about how he doubts Ricky Price would be defended the same way Grayson is.

Is this a discussion you want to have? You sounded a bit disgusted and scornful the first time you mentioned it.

 

[GillJET]

Is this a discussion you want to have? You sounded a bit disgusted and scornful the first time you mentioned it.

I’m not afraid of a conversation about race.
I’ve lived with, gone to school with, gone to work with, done everything with, with all different races my entire life.

I’ve seen all sorts of posts since the UNC game about both Grayson and Tre. Grayson has been both defended and criticized. Tre has been both defended and criticized.
JTre’s post was the first post where I’ve seen somebody try to bring race into the conversation. And my reaction was simply, geez why do we have to go there. Where is brining up race gonna get us when talking about our Blue Devils?

 

[Jtre]

I’m not afraid of a conversation about race.
I’ve lived with, gone to school with, gone to work with, done everything with, with all different races my entire life.

I’ve seen all sorts of posts since the UNC game about both Grayson and Tre. Grayson has been both defended and criticized. Tre has been both defended and criticized.
JTre’s post was the first post where I’ve seen somebody try to bring race into the conversation. And my reaction was simply, geez why do we have to go there. Where is brining up race gonna get us when talking about our Blue Devils?

Realistically speaking, where is a discussion about anything likely to get us on here?

You started a thread about benching Duval. Let's say you provided a great argument and that led to a board consensus about benching him. Where does that get us? Do you think Coach K is going read it, think you made a hell of a point and then decide to insert AOC or Goldwire into the starting five?

I brought up race, in a small part, because the kid gloves used to criticize Allen when compared to Black players on this same team and past ones is hard not for me to notice. It should be noted that I also acknowledged he was a guard and hated like other former Duke favorites and that probably plays a part in the perception many Duke fans have of him. They want him to be somebody he is not, and part of the reason they want it so badly for him is his race.

Finally, it's good to hear you're not afraid of racial discussions. It's also nice for you to point out how accepting you are of other races and let everyone know about your learning and working alongside such diverse populations of people.

For white people, that is often times a choice. For Black people, however, that is simply a necessity for achieving success in this country.

 

[Dattier]

I’m not afraid of a conversation about race.
I’ve lived with, gone to school with, gone to work with, done everything with, with all different races my entire life.

I’ve seen all sorts of posts since the UNC game about both Grayson and Tre. Grayson has been both defended and criticized. Tre has been both defended and criticized.
JTre’s post was the first post where I’ve seen somebody try to bring race into the conversation. And my reaction was simply, geez why do we have to go there. Where is brining up race gonna get us when talking about our Blue Devils?

If you're willing to have a conversation about race, then you need to put aside your irritation and eye-rolling about race being in the conversation. Otherwise, you're not really participating in such a discussion; you're just disrupting it.

It's not bringing race into it. Race is already in it. Bringing it up isn't going anywhere; it's acknowledging where we already are.

If Grayson and Trevon are treated differently b/c of race, I'd like to identify that and remove that different treatment as best we can. I've seen this work both ways: white player gets credited with spirit and black player gets blamed for being "thuggish"; or black player gets a pass for cultural differences and white player gets hated on for having an attitude.

It's not a question to be asked and answered one time only. It's something that needs to be monitored regularly. I don't know if it's a question to be answered at all. Maybe we ask as a reminder to stop, take stock, and proceed as deliberately and mindfully as possible.

 

[hart2chesson]

Jesus Christ, now here comes race into the equation. I think most, and damn near close to all, Duke fans just want to win. Doesn’t matter if the player is black or white.

Very well said GJ!

OFC

 

[Tross282003]

I think it silly to bench Duval. He is our best defensive guard and it’s not close. He has made some bad decisions but he has a switch that comes on at the end of games where able to attack the basket.

He is better suited for more pick and roll offense than our current offense also better in transition where he can attack the basket.

Goldwire is nowhere near the talent that Duval is. AOC is horrible on defenses and has been inconsistent.

Goldwire is a sub 300 recruit that may in a years develop into a decent backup defensive point guard.

Allen isn’t the same player he was in 2016 and 2015 due to a variety of factors.

 

[carolinablue34]

Ol Roy may be missing on the one and done, but he seems to be getting the most out of his talent. His philosophy to keep playing kids so they will be ready by March is working. That's a fact, even though I despise the Holes.
He's having one of his best coaching years in my opinion, and I can't stand it.

I think Roy generally does well at getting the best out of his players, which all great coaches do on some level.

I'm curious to see how we do in the tournament this year but I do love the grit of the team and how they never seem to quit.

As for OAD, it's always a mixed bag. In order for it to work, you need three to four 5 star players a year and getting them to gel over the course of five months is certainly not guaranteed. The other risk is that they don't turn out as good as originally perceived, which is what is happening in Lexington this year. The game they played yesterday was not as close as the score indicated, A&M ran them off the court.

Like I said, I don't think the OAD era has been very good for college basketball. I believe that certain problems the sport was having before only became worse as a result of the rule.

 

[Duke Blu]

Do you know how many guys from the early years would have left after 1 to two years if they played in this era? Grant Hill would have been gone.

 

[carolinablue34]

Do you know how many guys from the early years would have left after 1 to two years if they played in this era? Grant Hill would have been gone.

Precisely why OAD is bad for the game. I think kids who are ready for the NBA should make the jump, but if you're going to go to college, you should stay at least two years. It's the kids that stick around that truly make a lasting legacy at Duke, Carolina or wherever it is. Besides, getting to the league after one year is not a guaranteed success. In fact a good portion of the NBA All stars this year aren't OAD.

 

[Duke Blu]

Precisely why OAD is bad for the game. I think kids who are ready for the NBA should make the jump, but if you're going to go to college, you should stay at least two years. It's the kids that stick around that truly make a lasting legacy at Duke, Carolina or wherever it is. Besides, getting to the league after one year is not a guaranteed success. In fact a good portion of the NBA All stars this year aren't OAD.

Right but my point is, K has always recruited elite level players. Ferry, Dawkins, Hill, Leattner, Brand, Boozer, J Will, Dunleavy. I can go on and on and on.

Tyus Jones left after one year which he never would have done back in 91,92. So I disagree when the OP says go back to the beginning. It’s not so much K has changed it’s that the game has changed. Kids like Kennard, Tyus and Frank Jackson would have stayed years ago. If Alex O’Connell explodes during the ACC tourney and NCAA, all of a sudden it will be “should AOC go?”

Think about Carolina, stackhouse, Wallace Jamison guys like that would have been left in today’s game. Duke would have to actually go after lesser talented players than “the beginning” if you hope to duplicate the Novas and recent UNC teams.

 

[carolinablue34]

Right but my point is, K has always recruited elite level players. Ferry, Dawkins, Hill, Leattner, Brand, Boozer, J Will, Dunleavy. I can go on and on and on.

Tyus Jones left after one year which he never would have done back in 91,92. So I disagree when the OP says go back to the beginning. It’s not so much K has changed it’s that the game has changed. Kids like Kennard, Tyus and Frank Jackson would have stayed years ago. If Alex O’Connell explodes during the ACC tourney and NCAA, all of a sudden it will be “should AOC go?”

Think about Carolina, stackhouse, Wallace Jamison guys like that would have been left in today’s game. Duke would have to actually go after lesser talented players than “the beginning” if you hope to duplicate the Novas and recent UNC teams.

Good points, and I believe you highlighted why OAD isn't good for the NBA or the college game.

Wallace and Stackhouse left after two years. Jamison and Vince left after three. All four had very good NBA careers. They weren't held back by staying, which is the perception at this moment in time.

I get the idea of wanting to go to the league when your stock is at its highest and potential at its greatest, but I must confess I miss the days when players would stay longer. Some don't need to go to college at all, and some are ready after a year, but the culture created from that does more harm than good. And again, that's not just because Carolina hasn't gone the best players the past few years.

 

[kingbluedevil]

I think Roy generally does well at getting the best out of his players, which all great coaches do on some level.

I'm curious to see how we do in the tournament this year but I do love the grit of the team and how they never seem to quit.

As for OAD, it's always a mixed bag. In order for it to work, you need three to four 5 star players a year and getting them to gel over the course of a year is certainly not guaranteed. The other risk is that they don't turn out as good as originally perceived, which is what is happening in Lexington this year. The game was not as close as the score indicated, A&M ran them off the court.

Like I said, I don't think the OAD era has been very good for college basketball. I believe that certain problems the sport was having before only became worse as a result of the rule.

Add a dollar and a quarter to this comment and buy yourself a soda

 

[kingbluedevil]

I think these players are hurting themselves not getting the education because some players that thought they were can't miss NBA players want stay long. Duke has some one and done players this year that are academically gifted. To be future GM or coaches need the education

 

[carolinablue34]

Add a dollar and a quarter to this comment and buy yourself a soda

That is a compliment right? Lol

 

[dukiejay]

I think these players are hurting themselves not getting the education because some players that thought they were can't miss NBA players want stay long. Duke has some one and done players this year that are academically gifted. To be future GM or coaches need the education

They can still get an education. Jah has been back at Duke each of the last two summers doing just that.

It’s easy for me to tell a kid he should stay. But I think you also have to capitalize on a lottery ticket. Nothing is promised to us tomorrow. I know it sounds lame, but it is what it is.

 

[BNM79]

Right but my point is, K has always recruited elite level players. Ferry, Dawkins, Hill, Leattner, Brand, Boozer, J Will, Dunleavy. I can go on and on and on.

Tyus Jones left after one year which he never would have done back in 91,92. So I disagree when the OP says go back to the beginning. It’s not so much K has changed it’s that the game has changed. Kids like Kennard, Tyus and Frank Jackson would have stayed years ago. If Alex O’Connell explodes during the ACC tourney and NCAA, all of a sudden it will be “should AOC go?”

Think about Carolina, stackhouse, Wallace Jamison guys like that would have been left in today’s game. Duke would have to actually go after lesser talented players than “the beginning” if you hope to duplicate the Novas and recent UNC teams.

Not to take away from your point but unc did have 3 key players ranked in the top 15 of their classes and were juniors and seniors. “Leaser” talent compared to some of the guys duke has recruited but really really good talent.

Duke should be fitting more guys in ranked around the 40s to 60s imo.

 

[GillJET]

Realistically speaking, where is a discussion about anything likely to get us on here?

You started a thread about benching Duval. Let's say you provided a great argument and that led to a board consensus about benching him. Where does that get us? Do you think Coach K is going read it, think you made a hell of a point and then decide to insert AOC or Goldwire into the starting five?

I brought up race, in a small part, because the kid gloves used to criticize Allen when compared to Black players on this same team and past ones is hard not for me to notice. It should be noted that I also acknowledged he was a guard and hated like other former Duke favorites and that probably plays a part in the perception many Duke fans have of him. They want him to be somebody he is not, and part of the reason they want it so badly for him is his race.

Finally, it's good to hear you're not afraid of racial discussions. It's also nice for you to point out how accepting you are of other races and let everyone know about your learning and working alongside such diverse populations of people.

For white people, that is often times a choice. For Black people, however, that is simply a necessity for achieving success in this country.

If you're willing to have a conversation about race, then you need to put aside your irritation and eye-rolling about race being in the conversation. Otherwise, you're not really participating in such a discussion; you're just disrupting it.

It's not bringing race into it. Race is already in it. Bringing it up isn't going anywhere; it's acknowledging where we already are.

If Grayson and Trevon are treated differently b/c of race, I'd like to identify that and remove that different treatment as best we can. I've seen this work both ways: white player gets credited with spirit and black player gets blamed for being "thuggish"; or black player gets a pass for cultural differences and white player gets hated on for having an attitude.

It's not a question to be asked and answered one time only. It's something that needs to be monitored regularly. I don't know if it's a question to be answered at all. Maybe we ask as a reminder to stop, take stock, and proceed as deliberately and mindfully as possible.

Great posts JTre and Datt.

The only thing I feel the need to reiterate is that I’m not seeing posts on this board giving preferential treatment to Grayson because he is white.
He is our lone senior. The only guy on the roster coming into the season who had played any real meaningful minutes for Duke basketball. And a hero in the championship game of our most recent championship. I would imagine those 3 facts have a lot to do with people being a big fan of his.

Thanks again for the great posts guys.

 

[topps coach]

Good points, and I believe you highlighted why OAD isn't good for the NBA or the college game.

Wallace and Stackhouse left after two years. Jamison and Vince left after three. All four had very good NBA careers. They weren't held back by staying, which is the perception at this moment in time.

I get the idea of wanting to go to the league when your stock is at its highest and potential at its greatest, but I must confess I miss the days when players would stay longer. Some don't need to go to college at all, and some are ready after a year, but the culture created from that does more harm than good. And again, that's not just because Carolina hasn't gone the best players the past few years.

From a selfish fans perspective I agree with what you say and wish kids would stay for four years,but the reality is that staying multiple years is the exception rather than the rule.If Roy would landed the players that we had they would have left at the same rate as our players have.Berry and Pinson are still in school because the chances that they play in the NBA are problematic.They are not still at Unc because Roy had some magic formula like most of the posters at THR Think.

 

[pisgah101]

While everybody is on here arguing I just read through and still wanna know what the heck "nitro circus" is

 

[ticket2ride04]

Good points, and I believe you highlighted why OAD isn't good for the NBA or the college game.

Wallace and Stackhouse left after two years. Jamison and Vince left after three. All four had very good NBA careers. They weren't held back by staying, which is the perception at this moment in time.

I get the idea of wanting to go to the league when your stock is at its highest and potential at its greatest, but I must confess I miss the days when players would stay longer. Some don't need to go to college at all, and some are ready after a year, but the culture created from that does more harm than good. And again, that's not just because Carolina hasn't gone the best players the past few years.

You have to consider getting to the league earlier is more about money than anything else. For Bagley, he re-classified to get into Duke early and will leave this year vs playing his senior and being forced to play 2 years of college basketball (proposed new rule). In tomorrow’s NBA, those 3 years could cost him $120M when you consider where salaries are for elite players. Maybe much more.

 

[carolinablue34]

You have to consider getting to the league earlier is more about money than anything else. For Bagley, he re-classified to get into Duke early and will leave this year vs playing his senior and being forced to play 2 years of college basketball (proposed new rule). In tomorrow’s NBA, those 3 years could cost him $120M when you consider where salaries are for elite players. Maybe much more.

Also a good point. I mean let's face it, Bagley would have made the jump from high school if the OAD rule didn't exist. He's going to a place that will give him a great chance to win while giving him a hell of a lot of exposure before cashing in.

But that doesn't mean I don't miss when players would stay more than a year. Then again, I suppose I should be thankful Bagley won't be a four year player at Duke haha.