Time to Go Back to the Beginning....

[Neue Regel]

Personally I think many expect too much from a new group of Freshmen that make up your teams every year. The fact is these kids have never played a lick of defense thier whole life. They've played so much ball on the AAU circuit that particular style of play can't be removed in a 4 month stay in College. Lastly a College game means absolutely nothing to these 1@dones. Many of these kids only have 6-7 weeks of classes to attend and then they'll become millionaires. What 18 year old with that future windfall could really care about playing for free.

Well if they are to get a free pass every year for being too young to guard then why bring in these kind of players? It’s like someone has a gun to K’s head saying “you must only recruit from the nations top10 HS list”

Also regarding the love letter from Ingraham. We could also bring up chemistry killer Austin Rivers, Corey “give me the money” Maggette, and Duval “look at my dunk” tweet.

It’s not all roses. Bottom line is this, are you guys not seeing the same product with these OAD kids? Teams that can’t guard, teams that lose games they shouldn’t, teams that have a short NCAA Tournament sans ONE year. If you’re enjoying that then have at it. Rinse, lather repeat as we’ll have the same thing next year.

 

[pavadukefan]

So if you don’t like or care for Rivers, Maggette, Duval. How did Tyler Thornton, Josh Hairston work out?

 

[denverexpat]

Well if they are to get a free pass every year for being too young to guard then why bring in these kind of players? It’s like someone has a gun to K’s head saying “you must only recruit from the nations top10 HS list”

Also regarding the love letter from Ingraham. We could also bring up chemistry killer Austin Rivers, Corey “give me the money” Maggette, and Duval “look at my dunk” tweet.

It’s not all roses. Bottom line is this, are you guys not seeing the same product with these OAD kids? Teams that can’t guard, teams that lose games they shouldn’t, teams that have a short NCAA Tournament sans ONE year. If you’re enjoying that then have at it. Rinse, lather repeat as we’ll have the same thing next year.

You could argue KY has actually done better with the OAD than we have - 1 Championship and 2 other final fours ( 3 if you go back to 2011) vs the one NT from 2015 for us. I dont think Coach K's philosophy is a really good match for younger elite players. He's about team building, leadership and devotion/commitment to those values...to re-teach that every year to 18 yo's who have very different goals i think is very very difficult. Getting these amazing recruiting classes is great for bragging rights but the results show it isnt great for winning titles consistently ( not just NT's but conference too)

 

[Neue Regel]

So if you don’t like or care for Rivers, Maggette, Duval. How did Tyler Thornton, Josh Hairston work out?

How did Thomas Hill work out?
How did Tony Lang work out?
How did Amile Jefferson work out?
How did Billy King work out?
How did Brian davis work out?
How did David Henderson work out?
How did Robert brickey work out?
How did Phil Henderson work out?
How did Chris Carrawell work out?
How did Nate James work out?
How did kevin Strickland work out?
How did Quin Snyder work out?


Should I keep going?

 

[topps coach]

How did Thomas Hill work out?
How did Tony Lang work out?
How did Amile Jefferson work out?
How did Billy King work out?
How did Brian davis work out?
How did David Henderson work out?
How did Robert brickey work out?
How did Phil Henderson work out?
How did Chris Carrawell work out?
How did Nate James work out?


Should I keep going?

You are listing players from 20 plus years ago which does not reflect the mindset of of today’s players.All of these players were complimentary players .We had those type of players last year and we still lost before the FF.Would be willing to bet that Christian ,Dawkins,Ferry, and JWill would leave early if they played today.

 

[pavadukefan]

You kind what all those players had on them is guys that most likely would have been OAD but hey that’s just me

 

[Neue Regel]

You are listing players from 20 plus years ago which does not reflect the mindset of of today’s players.All of these players were complimentary players .We had those type of players last year and we still lost before the FF.Would be willing to bet that Christian ,Dawkins,Ferry, and JWill would leave early if they played today.

How many Pros did Nova have in 2016? How many did UNC have the last two seasons?
You don’t have to have five NBA players starting to achieve something. K has just lulled the fan base into thinking they do.

 

[pavadukefan]

How did 2007-2009 work out for Duke? Villanova does recruit those guys but hey you don’t seem to want any of them? You want those players to go UNC, UK.

 

[Neue Regel]

You are listing players from 20 plus years ago which does not reflect the mindset of of today’s players.All of these players were complimentary players .We had those type of players last year and we still lost before the FF.Would be willing to bet that Christian ,Dawkins,Ferry, and JWill would leave early if they played today.

Doesn’t matter. Only a small % can go to the NBA. There are 347 D1 schools. You mean to tell me Duke cannot find some kids who can contribute and hang around??

 

[Neue Regel]

How did 2007-2009 work out for Duke? Villanova does recruit those guys but hey you don’t seem to want any of them? You want those players to go UNC, UK.

Well thanks K for stopping Roy and Calapiari from doing something better with the players you’re preventing them from getting. (Though as we have seen, Roy doesnt need them)

 

[statelinecock]

Well if they are to get a free pass every year for being too young to guard then why bring in these kind of players? It’s like someone has a gun to K’s head saying “you must only recruit from the nations top10 HS list”

Also regarding the love letter from Ingraham. We could also bring up chemistry killer Austin Rivers, Corey “give me the money” Maggette, and Duval “look at my dunk” tweet.

It’s not all roses. Bottom line is this, are you guys not seeing the same product with these OAD kids? Teams that can’t guard, teams that lose games they shouldn’t, teams that have a short NCAA Tournament sans ONE year. If you’re enjoying that then have at it. Rinse, lather repeat as we’ll have the same thing next year.

Getting these players is like crack to a fanbase. It gives you the off-season to dream, fantasize about how the paper team you have coming in is going to dominate. The problem though is expectations and the fact these kids have a few short months to find magic in a bottle. Really unrealistic. For instance a few months back Duvall could be the best pg to lace them up for Duke. Now many want him benched and are now dreaming of Jones next year. The sad fact the 1@done method robs the fans of perhaps seeing Duvall in fact be an all time great. Right now he's a talented freshman trying to run a team. Regardless of the skillset almost impossible to do at a high level as a Freshman. Regardless if he struggles the NBA is ready to assume the risk and leave you with memories, that of a pg that couldn't get it together his Freshman year in which 99% can't at this age.

 

[pavadukefan]

There was a time on this board when Duke wasn’t getting top talent and people felt K was losing his touch. Now Duke is getting good talent and people complain.

 

[topps coach]

There was a time on this board when Duke wasn’t getting top talent and people felt K was losing his touch. Now Duke is getting good talent and people complain.

Amen

 

[topps coach]

Doesn’t matter. Only a small % can go to the NBA. There are 347 D1 schools. You mean to tell me Duke cannot find some kids who can contribute and hang around??

We had two last year agree that you need some of these type players to win but to say that you don’t recruit the top talent is insane.Hopefully Bolden stays and himand AOC will give us some experienced play next year.

 

[Neue Regel]

We had two last year agree that you need some of these type players to win but to say that you don’t recruit the top talent is insane.Hopefully Bolden stays and himand AOC will give us some experienced play next year.

I’m not saying don’t recruit the top players but don’t put all your eggs in that basket either. There are players beyond the top 10-15.

 

[Mac9192]

There was a time on this board when Duke wasn’t getting top talent and people felt K was losing his touch. Now Duke is getting good talent and people complain.

The problem I have is it is either feast or famine. Yeah no one wants to go back to the lean 06-09 years. But a lot of folks aren't crazy about 80% of the starters being one and dones. Can we not be in between, like get 2-3 mixed in? And I don't want to hear about last season. It was set up for multiple one and dones to start.
I also don't want to hear about 15, because Okafor was the only recruited one year guy, plus we had veterans.
This season isn't over, and if Duke wins it all, or gets to the final 4, we can say this can work. But if not, we will be even younger next season, with our returning guys less experienced than our lone senior now.
I want us to do well this season, but my confidence isn't as high now as it was a month ago.
Some say take the talent and figure it out. That's in play as we speak, so stay tuned.

 

[kingbluedevil]

How did Thomas Hill work out?
How did Tony Lang work out?
How did Amile Jefferson work out?
How did Billy King work out?
How did Brian davis work out?
How did David Henderson work out?
How did Robert brickey work out?
How did Phil Henderson work out?
How did Chris Carrawell work out?
How did Nate James work out?
How did kevin Strickland work out?
How did Quin Snyder work out?


Should I keep going?

Some of my favorite players. Strickland wanted to go to unc but Dean Smith took Ranzino Smith instead. Strickland had an older brother that played in Europe that was really good but didn't have the grades to get in college. Kevin would bring him to Duke for pickup games and dominate.

 

[pavadukefan]

Mac you can’t have it both ways. No one expected Kennard to leave after 2 years. Are you going to tell him not to take the money? How about Tyus Jones? Winslow? You going to say no don’t turn pro? I hated 07-09 because Duke was losing players to other schools. There was a perception that Duke couldn’t get good low post players. Duke has a severe perception problem. I would rather take top talent than not. This is a moot point as the rule change will happen and Duke will have to change what it does

 

[Mac9192]

Mac you can’t have it both ways. No one expected Kennard to leave after 2 years. Are you going to tell him not to take the money? How about Tyus Jones? Winslow? You going to say no don’t turn pro? I hated 07-09 because Duke was losing players to other schools. There was a perception that Duke couldn’t get good low post players. Duke has a severe perception problem. I would rather take top talent than not. This is a moot point as the rule change will happen and Duke will have to change what it does

Yes you can. Kennard raised his stock didn't he at pro day? Nothing is perfect, yeah, but my point is we are about to find out if this formula will work. All the past champions had great veteran leaders, we are hoping to become the first to do it without multiple veterans.

 

[pavadukefan]

You go ahead and think that but the bottom line is Duke is landing great players and you are complaining about it in one or another. I followed Duke for a long time and believe me UNC and other schools go after OAD just like Duke and if they were going else where the complaint would be Duke can’t recruit. This team has flaws I am aware of it but to say a team full of Goldwire’s, White’s and other players like that would get Duke to a Final 4 is nuts in my view

 

[Mac9192]

You go ahead and think that but the bottom line is Duke is landing great players and you are complaining about it in one or another. I followed Duke for a long time and believe me UNC and other schools go after OAD just like Duke and if they were going else where the complaint would be Duke can’t recruit. This team has flaws I am aware of it but to say a team full of Goldwire’s, White’s and other players like that would get Duke to a Final 4 is nuts in my view

I never said a team full of Goldwire's and White players will, but show me one that was one and done dominated with little veteran leadership that did win it all? Like I said, we're doing a lot of praying and begging that this experiment of "Take the talent and figure it out" will work. I hope it does, but I don't like this trying to catch lightning in a bottle thinking.
We have the highest ceiling of any team, the question remains will we reach that ceiling?

 

[Dattier]

Sorry if you don't like it, but this is what is translating on the court. Not enough senior leadership. Too many young guys to rely on. No excuse to get outrebounded on the offensive boards like they did. That is really an indictment of effort when guys are 7 feet tall going up with one hand to snag a rebound. Those of you painting some rosy picture about this team, it's insane. Like no one is allowed to speak negatively about them. This team has alot of issues, they defend poorly, get beat on the boards, struggle in man to man.

There've been two references to far more compelling evidence than the ugly narrative you wrote in frustration: the link to BI's letter and mentioning Bags' postgame interview.

You can speak critically of the team's play. You're being negative about their character.

 

[gottagonow]

You are listing players from 20 plus years ago which does not reflect the mindset of of today’s players.All of these players were complimentary players .We had those type of players last year and we still lost before the FF.Would be willing to bet that Christian ,Dawkins,Ferry, and JWill would leave early if they played today.

TOPPS I agree mostly as there's little doubt those 4 you mention would leave after their freshman season. I bet that 95 out of 100 such players would leave after 1 year these days. A coach worth a darn is going to go after the very best but most coaches don't get them. Not sure why in K and Cals case except maybe they receive more attention from the NBA but they just have a great knack for getting them.

One thing though, Chris Carrawell wasn't necessarily a complimentary player but he was the ACC POY in 2000.

 

[dukesince91]

I just don't get all the talk about Coach K needs to sprinkle in 3 & 4 star players with OAD's. How many years has he been going with all OAD's?
Last year we almost put it all together which I thought would have been remarkable considering the injuries and Grayson's mess. This year's not over and people are counting Duke out. Let's see Coach K has been at Duke 37 years and has 5 national championships. They just don't happen very often. How many of those years has he used the OAD model? People act like his method are flawed now. He's won titles with a variety of different type of teams. I think he's going to win another with the OAD's. Let's wait and see. He's not considered the GOAT for no reason. This day and time, everybody seems to know the solution...right Mac?

 

[Tross282003]

I think it is crazy that people think we shouldn’t go after the best talent. UNC goes after top talent but they just don’t get it.

This team can still go far in the tournament. Bagley and Carter need to dominate which they can.

Next year’s team will probably be better with Reddish, Barrett, Williamson and Jones and one big most likely a healthy Bolden. AOC will be physically stronger and a guy like like Trent could stick around another year.

 

[dukesince91]

I just don't see Trent staying. He's shown he's NBA ready imo.

 

[QC Dukie]

I think it is crazy that people think we shouldn’t go after the best talent. UNC goes after top talent but they just don’t get it.

This team can still go far in the tournament. Bagley and Carter need to dominate which they can.

Next year’s team will probably be better with Reddish, Barrett, Williamson and Jones and one big most likely a healthy Bolden. AOC will be physically stronger and a guy like like Trent could stick around another year.

Agreed. Even though we will be very young next season, I see us being stronger. However, I am by no means throwing in the towel on this season. We still can do this.

 

[topps coach]

TOPPS I agree mostly as there's little doubt those 4 you mention would leave after their freshman season. I bet that 95 out of 100 such players would leave after 1 year these days. A coach worth a darn is going to go after the very best but most coaches don't get them. Not sure why in K and Cals case except maybe they receive more attention the NBA but they just have a great knack for getting them.

One thing though, Chris Carrawell wasn't necessarily a complimentary player but he was the ACC POY in 2000.

Agree Was referring to his career before his senior year when called hon a complimentary player.One of my favorite players of all time

 

[BlueDevilWildcat]

It's not about recruiting talent, it's about building a team. A guy like Luke Maye (who we all mocked years ago) would never get a chance to shine at Duke. And the pumpers would say "Coach K is the GOAT, enough said."

Look, let's be honest - there are more than a handful of coaches - including one down 15-501 - that could take the talent the last 3 Duke teams have had and made it farther in the tourney than the current staff. Most of us know this.

All the excuses on this board are annoying.

 

[topps coach]

It's not about recruiting talent, it's about building a team. A guy like Luke Maye (who we all mocked years ago) would never get a chance to shine at Duke. And the pumpers would say "Coach K is the GOAT, enough said."

Look, let's be honest - there are more than a handful of coaches - including one down 15-501 - that could take the talent the last 3 Duke teams have had and made it farther in the tourney than the current staff. Most of us know this.

All the excuses on this board are annoying.

You have to be joking.Roy for some reason has been able to keep top level talent in school for three plus years.Both Pinson and Jackson were rated higher or as high as Justice coming out of HS.In case you have forgotten we won the NC in the last three years and had a team that was decimated by injuries last year and ran into a team that was on a magical run to the FF.Thisyears team’s has not been determined as their is a lot of basketball left.Finally anyone who thinks Huckleberry is a better coach than K lacks any knowledge of B.B.

 

[QC Dukie]

You have to be joking.Roy for some reason has been able to keep top level talent in school for three plus years.Both Pinson and Jackson were rated higher or as high as Justice coming out of HS.In case you have forgotten we won the NC in the last three years and had a team that was decimated by injuries last year and ran into a team that was on a magical run to the FF.Thisyears team’s has not been determined as their is a lot of basketball left.Finally anyone who thinks Huckleberry is a better coach than lacks any knowledge of B.B.

Great post

It's not about recruiting talent, it's about building a team. A guy like Luke Maye (who we all mocked years ago) would never get a chance to shine at Duke. And the pumpers would say "Coach K is the GOAT, enough said."

Look, let's be honest - there are more than a handful of coaches - including one down 15-501 - that could take the talent the last 3 Duke teams have had and made it farther in the tourney than the current staff. Most of us know this.

All the excuses on this board are annoying.

Man the posts on this board are getting dumber and dumber. To say roy would’ve taken the last three duke teams further us absurd.

 

[Dattier]

Anyone unilaterally questioning the heart and commitment of OAD players should read Brandon Ingram's goodbye letter to Duke.

Also regarding the love letter from Ingraham. We could also bring up chemistry killer Austin Rivers, Corey “give me the money” Maggette, and Duval “look at my dunk” tweet.

I have to question whether you have any idea what "unilaterally" means here...

"Love letter"? That's dismissive and disrespectful. A knee-jerk retort about 3 players where you assume your own negative opinion represents some consensus, or to someone else, a similar longer list of 4-year players who were valuable is logically fallacious and childish.

 

[BlueDevilWildcat]

You have to be joking.Roy for some reason has been able to keep top level talent in school for three plus years.Both Pinson and Jackson were rated higher or as high as Justice coming out of HS.In case you have forgotten we won the NC in the last three years and had a team that was decimated by injuries last year and ran into a team that was on a magical run to the FF.Thisyears team’s has not been determined as their is a lot of basketball left.Finally anyone who thinks Huckleberry is a better coach than K lacks any knowledge of B.B.

2015 isn't applicable to this discussion. We had Amile, Matt, and Quinn. Not to mention perhaps the best defender in the country. Night and day.

We are trying to overwhelm with talent and hoping that offsets the staff's inability to maximize the performance of the team.

You're welcome to your perspective, it's one I suspect more and more fans are beginning to question.

 

[topps coach]

You specifically mentioned the last three years that we underachieved.2015 fits in that timeframe .Last year we had two of the three complimentary players you mentioned as well as aJunior and sophomore so your premise is flawed,but don’t let facts get in the way of your narrative

 

[Dattier]

2015 isn't applicable to this discussion. We had Amile, Matt, and Quinn. Not to mention perhaps the best defender in the country. Night and day.

Best defender in the country? Justise? Let's not romanticize and revise history. He was a really strong defender, but he didn't even make the ACC's All-Defensive team, let alone challenge for being the best defender in the country. And last year you were posting about how we had no perimeter D, which would include a senior Matt Jones (who did make the All-Acc Defensive team).

Maybe 2015 is irrelevant, but none of what you've said explains why. And if the premise is as broad and basic as saying OAD is bad, period, 2015 absolutely is relevant.

 

[BM16]

There've been two references to far more compelling evidence than the ugly narrative you wrote in frustration: the link to BI's letter and mentioning Bags' postgame interview.

You can speak critically of the team's play. You're being negative about their character.

What's the incentive to really buy in when they're playing basketball for 4 months and about three months after the season's over they are lottery draft picks who are about to cash in for life?

 

[Dattier]

What's the incentive to really buy in when they're playing basketball for 4 months and about three months after the season's over they are lottery draft picks who are about to cash in for life?

Sounds like you're projecting. That says more about you than them.

 

[dukesince91]

This crap about buying in is a bunch of bull. Heck, I bet everyone of them hate to lose as much as any of us. It's called pride, and if you're a ball player that is as talented as what we have then they have it. I just don't buy this stuff that you have to be an upper classmen to buy in.

 

[dukiejay]

This crap about buying in is a bunch of bull. Heck, I bet everyone of them hate to lose as much as any of us. It's called pride, and if you're a ball player that is as talented as what we have then they have it. I just don't buy this stuff that you have to be an upper classmen to buy in.

For the most part, I agree. It’s just that the ‘they’re not buying in’ is an easy excuse for people to use. They really have no clue, just like we don’t on whether they’ve bought in or not. But it’s cool to say.

Also, I think if you look back, you’ll find that it’s often said about championship teams that everyone bought in....when the truth is probably that most teams buy in, but simply buying in doesn’t make a team great.

 

[carolinablue34]

I get both sides of this debate. As a UNC fan, I've been one of the few who has been vocally frustrated that Roy has not been able to land higher caliber talent and to some degree it has caught up to us. I remember when he basically could land whoever he wanted, basically what K is doing now.

Roy was also landing monster recruiting classes before the OAD era really took off. Guys like Lawson, Hansbrough, Ellington, etc. stuck around. That works against him now. K took advantage of something that Kentucky more or less started and now the top 3 players are going to Durham next year.

On the other hand, I can also see the argument that OAD is pretty hit or miss. Yeah, I want 5 star talent, but I can't deny how happy I am to see Luke Maye really develop into an All-ACC caliber player. I enjoy seeing guys like Berry and Theo stick around and become favorites.

On the other hand, you're not going to win nattys with three stars. I was not happy with our latest class and talent is talent. Even if it sticks around for only a year, you still want the best players.

Bottom line: I've never liked OAD and not just because Carolina hasn't been benefiting from it. I think it's bad for the college game in general.