https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...basketball-player-rape-allegation/2820573002/
Well, this is terrible
Well, this is terrible
Duke dragged into the Virginia Lt Gov scandal
- Thread starter TheDude1
- Start date
20 years ago.https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...basketball-player-rape-allegation/2820573002/
Well, this is terrible
I'm sorry, but stuff that happened (allegedly) 20 or 30 years ago, but just being brought up now...when memories are faded, and facts are hard to prove...or disapprove, raises my spidey sense. If it happened, I feel sorry for the girl, but if it didn't happen...what about the person accused? She has the right to bring up the allegations, but I have the right to be skeptical...and I am.
OFC
OFC
Me too OAD! I’m skeptical because lately, time and time again there has been accusations thrown out there like this to see if they stick, but ultimately nothing comes of it. If it happened, I feel sorry for the girl and if it didn’t happen, I feel sorry for whoever the player was and he has the right to go after her for destroying his reputation.
If it indeed happen he needs to take responsibility for his actions. I've always ask for justice when it happened at other schools carefully making sure it was true. All we can do now is speculate and that's not the ideal thing to do. OFC
If she was raped then I hope whoever did it is brought to justice. And, if true, and if the Dean didn't offer help and discouraged her from pursuing the claim further, then eff that guy and he should be held accountable as well.
Pretty much. I want the facts not allegations ( see duke lacrosse) However, everyone who did wrong deserves the force of the hammer of justice.
Always best to reserve judgement. Most recent example is the high school kid that got trashed for supposedly taunting a tribal elder in D.C. There was much more to the story and the kid has a lawyer now and libel cases are in the wind.
As noted, you never want to jump to conclusions. The MAGA hat kid/native elder video was a great example.
That said...
Hmmm... In terms of memory fading, if the accusations are true it’s unlikely that the key detail (I got raped by a Duke basketball player) are the result of faded memory, you know?
I don’t think there will likely be any way to prove or disprove anything (or if there will ever really be a legal attempt to do so). That leaves each of us to use our common sense, understanding of human beings, and understanding of facts to draw our own conclusions.
Honestly Sky, while I understand you saying you have the right to be skeptical, the odds are sadly far greater that it is true than untrue. About one in four undergrad females are sexually assaulted. The rate of false claims of assault are somewhere in the 2-7 percent range. Unfortunately college athletes can sometimes develop a feeling of godliness, especially in high profile positions. And there seems to be no logical reason/“reward” for this woman to have invented the story. When you combine all of that... well, you can be skeptical, but I’d try to keep the ratio of skeptical : open to the idea at appropriate levels, you know? And it kills me to say that, given that it is our school and our boys who may be involved
Ehhh... just because nothing comes of an accusation doesn’t mean it is false. Many, many, many times it comes to down to he said/she said, or there is a lack of physical evidence, or a woman loses her nerve, or a statute of limitations passes, or any number of factors that contribute to nothing coming of an accusation. I agree with you in feeling bad for the girl if it happened, or the player accused (if that happens) if it didn’t... but odds are unfortunately far getter that she is telling the truth, to the unhappiness of all moral guys.
My hope as a Duke grad and fan is that, if more comes out, our university and coaching staff and anyone else involved handled it all in the right way.
That said...
Hmmm... In terms of memory fading, if the accusations are true it’s unlikely that the key detail (I got raped by a Duke basketball player) are the result of faded memory, you know?
I don’t think there will likely be any way to prove or disprove anything (or if there will ever really be a legal attempt to do so). That leaves each of us to use our common sense, understanding of human beings, and understanding of facts to draw our own conclusions.
Honestly Sky, while I understand you saying you have the right to be skeptical, the odds are sadly far greater that it is true than untrue. About one in four undergrad females are sexually assaulted. The rate of false claims of assault are somewhere in the 2-7 percent range. Unfortunately college athletes can sometimes develop a feeling of godliness, especially in high profile positions. And there seems to be no logical reason/“reward” for this woman to have invented the story. When you combine all of that... well, you can be skeptical, but I’d try to keep the ratio of skeptical : open to the idea at appropriate levels, you know? And it kills me to say that, given that it is our school and our boys who may be involved
Ehhh... just because nothing comes of an accusation doesn’t mean it is false. Many, many, many times it comes to down to he said/she said, or there is a lack of physical evidence, or a woman loses her nerve, or a statute of limitations passes, or any number of factors that contribute to nothing coming of an accusation. I agree with you in feeling bad for the girl if it happened, or the player accused (if that happens) if it didn’t... but odds are unfortunately far getter that she is telling the truth, to the unhappiness of all moral guys.
My hope as a Duke grad and fan is that, if more comes out, our university and coaching staff and anyone else involved handled it all in the right way.
Very good points Dude. As per your last point, the very, very least that should happen every time, at every institution is that the very well paid professionals should follow the law and do their jobs. Too much, for far too long has been ignored well after we have known better.
As noted, you never want to jump to conclusions. The MAGA hat kid/native elder video was a great example.
That said...
Hmmm... In terms of memory fading, if the accusations are true it’s unlikely that the key detail (I got raped by a Duke basketball player) are the result of faded memory, you know?
Dramatic much? Again, if you're raped. And faded memories , yes, that is very important because if the accused knows a date, a time, or a place that said incident was supposed to have happened then they may very well have an alibi, BUT years later they may not know where they were (not everyone has a super memory, detailed records or receipts like LAX kids had...and especially not 20 years ago).
I don’t think there will likely be any way to prove or disprove anything (or if there will ever really be a legal attempt to do so). That leaves each of us to use our common sense, understanding of human beings, and understanding of facts to draw our own conclusions.
Yes, we do use our common sense (and I'm exercising mine). If you're raped, then you report it, and thus you can present physical evidence of a struggle (that would be one of those little ol facts in your favor). And also a place and time which could possibly be validated by others, that could possibly place the accused there also...and those things listed will be almost impossible to verify years later as physical evidence wasn't obtained, and yes, faded memories don't allow a detailed log of what happened, where, and at what time.
Honestly Sky, while I understand you saying you have the right to be skeptical, the odds are sadly far greater that it is true than untrue. About one in four undergrad females are sexually assaulted. The rate of false claims of assault are somewhere in the 2-7 percent range. Unfortunately college athletes can sometimes develop a feeling of godliness, especially in high profile positions. And there seems to be no logical reason/“reward” for this woman to have invented the story. When you combine all of that... well, you can be skeptical, but I’d try to keep the ratio of skeptical : open to the idea at appropriate levels, you know? And it kills me to say that, given that it is our school and our boys who may be involved
I think you meant me (dirt) instead of Sky, but giving statistics on how many females are raped, or the percentage of them has nothing to do with the guilt or innocence of an individual person. We don't convict on the likelihood of a certain demographic doing a crime, we convict on evidence. And yes I will continue to remain skeptical until evidence proves otherwise.
Ehhh... just because nothing comes of an accusation doesn’t mean it is false. Many, many, many times it comes to down to he said/she said, or there is a lack of physical evidence, or a woman loses her nerve, or a statute of limitations passes, or any number of factors that contribute to nothing coming of an accusation. I agree with you in feeling bad for the girl if it happened, or the player accused (if that happens) if it didn’t... but odds are unfortunately far getter that she is telling the truth, to the unhappiness of all moral guys.
Yeah, an accusation can be perfectly truthful, and nothing come of it. But an accusation can ruin an innocent person's life also. Once an accusation is made, the taint never truly goes away (ask the LAX kids). So, if an accusation is made it should be one that has as much evidence and support as possible...and 20 years of lapsed time is not a good way to do that.
Now, this one really gets me...'the odds are far greater that she is telling the truth'!
Yeah, it's a known biological fact that women won't lie, or can't lie. Again, evidence, that's what is needed, and that's why decades of waiting reduces, if not totally, eliminates the possibility of getting to the truth.
My hope as a Duke grad and fan is that, if more comes out, our university and coaching staff and anyone else involved handled it all in the right way.
And on this we can agree.
OFC
As noted, you never want to jump to conclusions. The MAGA hat kid/native elder video was a great example.
That said...
Hmmm... In terms of memory fading, if the accusations are true it’s unlikely that the key detail (I got raped by a Duke basketball player) are the result of faded memory, you know?
I don’t think there will likely be any way to prove or disprove anything (or if there will ever really be a legal attempt to do so). That leaves each of us to use our common sense, understanding of human beings, and understanding of facts to draw our own conclusions.
Honestly Sky, while I understand you saying you have the right to be skeptical, the odds are sadly far greater that it is true than untrue. About one in four undergrad females are sexually assaulted. The rate of false claims of assault are somewhere in the 2-7 percent range. Unfortunately college athletes can sometimes develop a feeling of godliness, especially in high profile positions. And there seems to be no logical reason/“reward” for this woman to have invented the story. When you combine all of that... well, you can be skeptical, but I’d try to keep the ratio of skeptical : open to the idea at appropriate levels, you know? And it kills me to say that, given that it is our school and our boys who may be involved
Ehhh... just because nothing comes of an accusation doesn’t mean it is false. Many, many, many times it comes to down to he said/she said, or there is a lack of physical evidence, or a woman loses her nerve, or a statute of limitations passes, or any number of factors that contribute to nothing coming of an accusation. I agree with you in feeling bad for the girl if it happened, or the player accused (if that happens) if it didn’t... but odds are unfortunately far getter that she is telling the truth, to the unhappiness of all moral guys.
My hope as a Duke grad and fan is that, if more comes out, our university and coaching staff and anyone else involved handled it all in the right way.
I didn't say anything about being skeptical.OFC
Duke had a rape problem from 2000-2004. I was witness to some sick behavior by a few fraternaties/housing groups and sports teams at that time (never saw anything bad from basketball players). The administration was not doing a great job at battling it at the time.
That said, there are no concrete details in the VA lt. gov. case at this time. That’s all I know. I hope anyone who raped another human being pays for it dearly. I hope innocent people don’t suffer.
That said, there are no concrete details in the VA lt. gov. case at this time. That’s all I know. I hope anyone who raped another human being pays for it dearly. I hope innocent people don’t suffer.
Oh shit, sorry OAD, Sky I totally did! My bad
Well I certainly hope you did your part and reported all the sick behavior you witnessed.
There are a lot more false allegations than people want to admit. It happens often. Who knows what happened but I am not convinced yet.
It’s crazy to me that anyone would rape someone else, and also crazy to me that people would falsely accuse another person, of sure a horrible thing!
In some cases I was asked by victims to not say anything. It’s a very complicared thing. In one case I took it to the Dean directly and was told “we’ll investigate, but there’s no real evidence.” They weren’t being proactive enough back then.
It was not an alcohol problem as they believed. It was a evil person problem. They were admitting too many donor/legacy types with lesser applications (but bigger pockets), and then those guys would cluster together in various ways amplifying the issue. Duke doesn’t have as big an issue with that now so I’ve heard. It was a shame, because the vast majority of my classmates were great people with amazing potential.
Just to point out, there is absolutely nothing to support your assertion that it happens often. In fact, the overwhelming majority of evidence shows that false accusations happen VERY rarely. Between two and seven percent of sexual assault reports are false, depending on which study you look at.
https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf
And that doesn’t even take into account that only roughly 35 percent of sex assaults are reported in the first place, per the US Bureau of Justice Statistics. If a woman you care about says she was assaulted, unfortunately she probably was
Facts are important when dealing with emotional issues...if you use the commonly accepted stats, 250 out of a thousand college women will be sexually assaulted, and only 90 of those would report it, with about four false accusations coming as well. While the false accusations are terrible, they are FAR more rare than true ones.You don’t need to be “convinced.” It would, in fact, be odd if you were, given that we have heard basically nothing about the situation, and the woman wasn’t even the one who brought this up; a man accused of sexually assaulting her did. I doubt we will ever get “convincing” evidence one way or the other (I can’t imagine this will become a legal issue?) leaving us to use facts, our common sense, and previous experiences to decide what we think likely happened.
Duke and Coach K say they will investigate. I hope they do.
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Sounds like Denver did well... better than some of us would in that situation. And unfortunately it is hard to report stuff like this, sometimes, given the personal and social pressures and even the fact that many women don’t want it reported. Thankfully I never experienced this at Duke, but I have a female friend in my peer group there who did. She did not report it
Alcohol, women, social situations where restraint is limited, and a certain type of guy don’t mix, and my guess is most of us know at least one guy like that.Can we not pull a Democrat Brett K situation here. Allegation per K. Let it play out.
Very difficult to compare those two situations. It also should concern all Americans, not just Democrats, if women are risking their own reputations by accusing powerful men of raping them.
There will never be any physical evidence in these older cases, so if you're "letting it play out" you're essentially waiting for this to blow over after the unrelated political debate has run its course. Would it sway you if a few more witnesses confirmed the accuser's story (because that sort of happened in the Brett K case)? My question with all these cases is why the hell would these women be making these claims if they were completely fabricated? What do they personally stand to gain? You could argue these accusations are part of a bigger political game, but I am more suspicious of a covert political smear job than the possibility that the men actually did it. It is possible accusers are just trying to hurt the men for some personal reason. That too is hard to believe without more context.
Further confounding the issue is where to draw the line. The borders between consensual relations and an uncomfortable encounter and criminal behavior are very hard to define, even if you were right there when it happened.
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Find it interesting how many are so skeptical/dismissive of claims and are interested in due process from the accused point of view but not the accusers. Makes me wonder how many of these skeptics would be inclined to round up some friends and prefer vigilante justice if the accuser was their wife or daughter.
As noted, you never want to jump to conclusions. The MAGA hat kid/native elder video was a great example.
That said...
Hmmm... In terms of memory fading, if the accusations are true it’s unlikely that the key detail (I got raped by a Duke basketball player) are the result of faded memory, you know?
I don’t think there will likely be any way to prove or disprove anything (or if there will ever really be a legal attempt to do so). That leaves each of us to use our common sense, understanding of human beings, and understanding of facts to draw our own conclusions.
Honestly Sky, while I understand you saying you have the right to be skeptical, the odds are sadly far greater that it is true than untrue. About one in four undergrad females are sexually assaulted. The rate of false claims of assault are somewhere in the 2-7 percent range. Unfortunately college athletes can sometimes develop a feeling of godliness, especially in high profile positions. And there seems to be no logical reason/“reward” for this woman to have invented the story. When you combine all of that... well, you can be skeptical, but I’d try to keep the ratio of skeptical : open to the idea at appropriate levels, you know? And it kills me to say that, given that it is our school and our boys who may be involved
Ehhh... just because nothing comes of an accusation doesn’t mean it is false. Many, many, many times it comes to down to he said/she said, or there is a lack of physical evidence, or a woman loses her nerve, or a statute of limitations passes, or any number of factors that contribute to nothing coming of an accusation. I agree with you in feeling bad for the girl if it happened, or the player accused (if that happens) if it didn’t... but odds are unfortunately far getter that she is telling the truth, to the unhappiness of all moral guys.
My hope as a Duke grad and fan is that, if more comes out, our university and coaching staff and anyone else involved handled it all in the right way.
I totally agree with you! If the girl is telling the truth and it comes out as such, then justice does need to be served, and I hope it’s a stiff punishment. However I am curious as to why she never mentioned the player’s name. That seems a little odd to me and one reason why I am a little skeptical.As noted, you never want to jump to conclusions. The MAGA hat kid/native elder video was a great example.
That said...
Hmmm... In terms of memory fading, if the accusations are true it’s unlikely that the key detail (I got raped by a Duke basketball player) are the result of faded memory, you know?
I don’t think there will likely be any way to prove or disprove anything (or if there will ever really be a legal attempt to do so). That leaves each of us to use our common sense, understanding of human beings, and understanding of facts to draw our own conclusions.
Honestly Sky, while I understand you saying you have the right to be skeptical, the odds are sadly far greater that it is true than untrue. About one in four undergrad females are sexually assaulted. The rate of false claims of assault are somewhere in the 2-7 percent range. Unfortunately college athletes can sometimes develop a feeling of godliness, especially in high profile positions. And there seems to be no logical reason/“reward” for this woman to have invented the story. When you combine all of that... well, you can be skeptical, but I’d try to keep the ratio of skeptical : open to the idea at appropriate levels, you know? And it kills me to say that, given that it is our school and our boys who may be involved
Ehhh... just because nothing comes of an accusation doesn’t mean it is false. Many, many, many times it comes to down to he said/she said, or there is a lack of physical evidence, or a woman loses her nerve, or a statute of limitations passes, or any number of factors that contribute to nothing coming of an accusation. I agree with you in feeling bad for the girl if it happened, or the player accused (if that happens) if it didn’t... but odds are unfortunately far getter that she is telling the truth, to the unhappiness of all moral guys.
My hope as a Duke grad and fan is that, if more comes out, our university and coaching staff and anyone else involved handled it all in the right way.
So why are we so dismissive about "false claims"? Well perhaps its that the most celebrated and glorified "rape" cases like the Brett Kavanaugh claims and the Duke Lacrosse scandal were either outright unbelievable or totally false and made up?
Recently one of my sons frat brothers had to leave his school after having sex with a girl and then she claimed the next day it was rape. even though she had text messages on her phone claiming otherwise.
So is rape bad? You bet.
But having sex with a guy (or girl) and regretting it the next day - that's not rape. It is however being treated as such by the media and certain "fringe" left wing groups.
Recently one of my sons frat brothers had to leave his school after having sex with a girl and then she claimed the next day it was rape. even though she had text messages on her phone claiming otherwise.
So is rape bad? You bet.
But having sex with a guy (or girl) and regretting it the next day - that's not rape. It is however being treated as such by the media and certain "fringe" left wing groups.
Taking rape accusations too far is not specific to liberal groups. This really isn’t a red/blue issue. You seem to be siding with your son’s buddies without knowing what happened. Text messages? Your son’s perspective? That’s just as shaky as the accuser’s evidence. Let’s be fair to those young men and the young woman. He shouldn’t have to leave school if he’s innocent, but I doubt the school kicked him out without physical evidence and multiple eyewitness accounts. If they did, he should take legal action.
The sad fact is that regardless this players lifenis about to be ruined. If he did it I hope he’s punished, his balls cut off, and fed to pigs. If he didn’t, his life is ruined because the media will drag him and his family through the mud until he has nothing. IMO if you tell a lie and make a false claim then you should serve the maximum sentence that the accused would’ve served. Once supposed victims are punished for telling lies this nonsense will stop.
In principal i agree with the logic here, it’s just not that easy unfortunately, especially when so many situations end up being a he said she said situation. It’s a really sucky situation all around.
Denver; Google "Furman University Rape Case" and read of the mishandled evidence and the damage that was caused. I am not good at posting links. So you will have to do some work.
A very similar case happened at Duke where a graduating senior was not allowed to get his diploma.
Regret, Doing something immature does not equal rape. I am sorry.
Coming out 20 years later and making an accusation that cannot be proved is simply not believable. Memory is too flawed.
I work with people in super stressful situations all the time. Thats the way things are in the field I work. When you put people in these situations for the first time and have them recant their stories they are not even close to reality and thats right after they happen.
While there may be data on how many "rape cases" are false, there is no data on accusations that are made some 20-30 years after the event.
A very similar case happened at Duke where a graduating senior was not allowed to get his diploma.
Regret, Doing something immature does not equal rape. I am sorry.
Coming out 20 years later and making an accusation that cannot be proved is simply not believable. Memory is too flawed.
I work with people in super stressful situations all the time. Thats the way things are in the field I work. When you put people in these situations for the first time and have them recant their stories they are not even close to reality and thats right after they happen.
While there may be data on how many "rape cases" are false, there is no data on accusations that are made some 20-30 years after the event.
Again... “this nonsense”, as in false claims, is incredibly rare, personal anecdotes notwithstanding. And there already are legal consequences for lying about someone doing something illegal.
Is there any reason to think that the player will be named? I haven’t seen anything about the woman wanting to pursue this... it’s been in the news because this politician in VA put it out there.
Btw, it’s been interesting watching the reaction from UK fans. A lot of them are the sort of guys who are in the “These women are pushy bitch liars!” camp... but they ALSO love the idea of a Duke basketball player being involved, and of course want to invent all sorts of ways that Duke and K enabled something etc etc. Its been interesting watching them try to balance two groups they hate.
University police and admins are typically bad at handling these things because they shouldn't be the ones handling it. You need a trained law enforcement person with experience to get it right and many of these university departments are half-assed operations. We actually have a top notch PD at the school I work at, but that's not necessarily the case everywhere. That Furman case looks ugly. I'm pretty sure Duke got things looking better after the lacrosse debacle.
Mad Russian, making this a liberal vs conservative issue is ridiculous. Really negates a lot of what you are trying to say. And, nobody, f ing nobody considers false claims to be acceptable. And, nobody considers consensual, but later regretted sex rape. Nobody. In the Furman case, you mentioned mishandled evidence. Duke LAX was so rampant with prosecutor misconduct. In this case, if the Dean did as accused, that is another example of system failure. If our systems fail, that is not the fault of the accused or the accuser.
I know that most of the time the guy has to prove his innocence. I speak from personal experience. Luckily I had someone come forward to prove I wasn’t there and it was all a lie. I was still looked at differently even after the girl admitted later she lied. Anywho....it aucks for everyone involved.
