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Bolden AND Javin testing the waters

I want Bolden back. If I had to pick between Bolden or Javin as to who I want to return next season, I'd go Bolden 100 times outta 100. However, there's a much better chance only Javin returns.

I look at is as more of a ceiling thing. Javin gives it his all, but I'm not sure how much better he can get, he's not all of a sudden gonna develop a jumper or be able to dribble.
I get it, Bolden's tenure has been frustrating. But if somehow the light bulb can flick on and stay on for him, he can be a dominant force. The Auburn game in Maui is the blueprint for what Bolden can be.

Next year's team will have the depth (yes I'm aware K will still only play 8) but I'd rather roll the dice on Bolden figuring things out, that could put this team over the top.
 
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jwill133 said:
I want Bolden back. If I had to pick between Bolden or Javin as to who I want to return next season, I'd go Bolden 100 times outta 100. However, there's a much better chance only Javin returns.

I look at is as more of a ceiling thing. Javin gives it his all, but I'm not sure how much better he can get, he's not all of a sudden gonna develop a jumper or be able to dribble.
I get it, Bolden's tenure has been frustrating. But if somehow the light bulb can flick on and stay on for him, he can be a dominant force. The Auburn game in Maui is the blueprint for what Bolden can be.

Next year's team will have the depth (yes I'm aware K will still only play 8) but I'd rather roll the dice on Bolden figuring things out, that could put this team over the top.
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Bolden is potentially the better player of the 2. But I think Javin will probably fit with next years team better. He’ll bring energy and leadership. Not to disrespect Ques, but it was Javin who was a captain last year.
 
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GillJET said:
Bolden is potentially the better player of the 2. But I think Javin will probably fit with next years team better. He’ll bring energy and leadership. Not to disrespect Ques, but it was Javin who was a captain last year.
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I hear you. We have Tre back, I'm not at all worried about leadership next season. Plus guys like Jack, AOC, and Goldwire will be providing that.

I'm all for having Javin back, think there is a role for him. IMO Bolden not only is the better player with the higher ceiling, he also fits better with next years team.
Neither Hurt nor Carey are "back to the basket" traditional post guys. Javin is the furthest thing from that too, however Bolden could be that guy.

Plus...were gonna need a lot of rim protection with Hurt on the floor, give me Bolden near the rim any day of the week over Javin.
 
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chov1125 said:
Well intensity can be a measurable of anything. When something is intense it is a high amount of whatever you are describing. So if you are saying his overall play isn’t intense, I would agree. I think a lot has to do with his personality. He’s uncomfortable doing certain things. It’s not an excuse but it’s a reasoning. If you are simply saying his effort isn’t intense. Well even that I see bits of truth. But very few people give intense amounts of effort. If you are saying he’s not giving effort, that I don’t agree with.

So going back to my original point, effort and intensity are not synonymous IMO. One is a trait and one is a measurable of that trait. It’s splitting hairs I know, but the overall point I’m trying to make is not that Ques isn’t giving effort or lollygagging. He struggles with his intensity because it’s uncomfortable for him to be that type of person. I’m not excusing him, I actually think it is what is holding him back from getting to that next level. If he ever develops an edge I truly believe the skills will follow. He has natural ability, a ton of it.
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So you’re saying that intensity measures effort? That’s a fair statement. If intensity measures effort and you say that he lacks intensity, then by default you also agree that he lacks effort. With all due respect - You’re playing semantics.

I don’t think that enters the game and tries to suck, I think that sometimes he works hard and other times he goes through the motions.
 
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BeerPoisoning said:
So you’re saying that intensity measures effort? That’s a fair statement. If intensity measures effort and you say that he lacks intensity, then by default you also agree that he lacks effort. With all due respect - You’re playing semantics.

I don’t think that enters the game and tries to suck, I think that sometimes he works hard and other times he goes through the motions.
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The point Im trying to make is that by saying he is lacking effort is suggesting he is not out there trying. In my head I picture a guy being the last one up and down the court each possession and then just standing around. That’s not Ques. In fact I see him motoring down the court most possessions depending on how long he’s been in the game. He’s giving effort. There’s an extra gear he’s never been able to locate because again I don’t believe it comes natural or is comfortable to him. If you agree with that we agree on the point as a whole and we can move on. I wasn’t trying to get into an argument about the meaning of words, I was just trying to explain my point, if one was in there, haha.
 
And really to be fair there are plenty of guys on our team that don’t play with intensity most if not all of the time. I don’t think Javin is intense or Alex or Jack. And that is why I defend Ques because I don’t think a lot of players have that extra gear, it’s what make certain players special.
 
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chov1125 said:
The point Im trying to make is that by saying he is lacking effort is suggesting he is not out there trying. In my head I picture a guy being the last one up and down the court each possession and then just standing around. That’s not Ques. In fact I see him motoring down the court most possessions depending on how long he’s been in the game. He’s giving effort. There’s an extra gear he’s never been able to locate because again I don’t believe it comes natural or is comfortable to him. If you agree with that we agree on the point as a whole and we can move on. I wasn’t trying to get into an argument about the meaning of words, I was just trying to explain my point, if one was in there, haha.
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I understand your point and don’t disagree with it. I just don’t think you’re grasping what I’m getting at. Maybe I’m explaining my opinion poorly. I’m not trying to create an argument with you either over words or Ques. Just having a fan-to-fan discussion and sharing thoughts. I’ll give my side of it one more explanation and if we still disagree then so be it lol

I don’t think he wants to lose and I don’t think he’s careless about team (and personal) success. What I think is that he takes possessions off. Do I think he purposely does it? Heck no. He just has 2 completely different personas on the court. For example, One of the Syracuse games he entered in the final 5 minutes and went ballistic, snagging 7-ish boards, couple dunks, etc. MSU game on the other hand, when he entered in the 1st time, he was just kind of hanging out. Let a couple boards fly right over his head, didn’t fight for position, got snagged over. THAT’S what bothers me because I know he’s better than that. I can make a million more examples but that’s what I’m getting at... Hot / cold motor.

If you disagree with that, we shall just agree to disagree buddy.

chov1125 said:
And really to be fair there are plenty of guys on our team that don’t play with intensity most if not all of the time. I don’t think Javin is intense or Alex or Jack. And that is why I defend Ques because I don’t think a lot of players have that extra gear, it’s what make certain players special.
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Nobody plays 110% every play, you’re right. Speaking of the MSU game, I thought Zion took a lot of plays off. He was spectacular though, don’t get me wrong. I can agree that Alex lacks intensity. Jack has a tendency to let his shooting effect everything, when he was on that cold streak he sucked at everything. Agree there too.

I’ll stick up for Javin though, that kid is a pure scrapper. We wouldn’t have beat VCU if he didn’t miraculously find position to grab that Oboard when Z missed a 3pt off his screen on our last Opossession. I think he has an insanely high drive / motor, but he makes a lot of boneheaded decisions foul wise.
 
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BeerPoisoning said:
I understand your point and don’t disagree with it. I just don’t think you’re grasping what I’m getting at. Maybe I’m explaining my opinion poorly. I’m not trying to create an argument with you either over words or Ques. Just having a fan-to-fan discussion and sharing thoughts. I’ll give my side of it one more explanation and if we still disagree then so be it lol

I don’t think he wants to lose and I don’t think he’s careless about team (and personal) success. What I think is that he takes possessions off. Do I think he purposely does it? Heck no. He just has 2 completely different personas on the court. For example, One of the Syracuse games he entered in the final 5 minutes and went ballistic, snagging 7-ish boards, couple dunks, etc. MSU game on the other hand, when he entered in the 1st time, he was just kind of hanging out. Let a couple boards fly right over his head, didn’t fight for position, got snagged over. THAT’S what bothers me because I know he’s better than that. I can make a million more examples but that’s what I’m getting at... Hot / cold motor.

If you disagree with that, we shall just agree to disagree buddy.



Nobody plays 110% every play, you’re right. Speaking of the MSU game, I thought Zion took a lot of plays off. He was spectacular though, don’t get me wrong. I can agree that Alex lacks intensity. Jack has a tendency to let his shooting effect everything, when he was on that cold streak he sucked at everything. Agree there too.

I’ll stick up for Javin though, that kid is a pure scrapper. We wouldn’t have beat VCU if he didn’t miraculously find position to grab that Oboard when Z missed a 3pt off his screen on our last Opossession. I think he has an insanely high drive / motor, but he makes a lot of boneheaded decisions foul wise.
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I agree with a lot of this. And to be honest, I think a big part is the RJ and Zion factor. Everything seemed to flow through them and that can lead to passiveness from our other players. I’m not saying we should have used them less, they are generational talents, but it likely also led to certain players at certain points of the game saying, “eh, Zion and RJ got this one...”
 
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I'd rather have both Javin and Bolden back obviously. But if we only get one I'd rather it be Javin. At season's end he was consistently giving solid effort and defense. With Bolden it's always sporadic for one reason or another.
 
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christophero said:
I'd rather have both Javin and Bolden back obviously. But if we only get one I'd rather it be Javin. At season's end he was consistently giving solid effort and defense. With Bolden it's always sporadic for one reason or another.
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See for me, and as many know (especially if you listen to the podcast, @dbav shameless plug) I’d rather have Bolden back. I think him anchoring the defense and allowing Carey to move to the 4 is the best play for us.
 
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I've always favored Bolden over Javin for what he could give us. But at season's end I changed my mind because Javin was finally doing it consistently. I think getting both back is unlikely. If they do both come back, together they are the perfect 5 for us.
 
chov1125 said:
I agree with a lot of this. And to be honest, I think a big part is the RJ and Zion factor. Everything seemed to flow through them and that can lead to passiveness from our other players. I’m not saying we should have used them less, they are generational talents, but it likely also led to certain players at certain points of the game saying, “eh, Zion and RJ got this one...”
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Yeah, especially the last 1/2 of the season it was a frickin’ stand-and-stare at RJ / Z with everyone. The point of the motion offense is to MOVE!!! Haha... Man that drove me nuts, if Bobby Knight was still announcing games for ESPN he would of lost it on national tv. — I guess we’ll see what this season has in store for Ques, assuming he’s gonna return. He’s due to explode.
 
hart2chesson said:
Djay, Timo, Hokie apologies in advance if this has been posted in this thread. Just wondering ( and guys I know we have dissected it), could THIS BE THE YEAR if Ques DOES RETURN....Article written last year I think during K's annual summer meet w/media:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-b...big-men-in-the-nation-despite-his-slow-start/

OFC
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I think this is part of my “salty” attitude towards him... Last year was finally supposed to be his breakout. Great summer, a lot of noted improvement — And we practically saw the same player.
 
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timo0402 said:
See for me, and as many know (especially if you listen to the podcast, @dbav shameless plug) I’d rather have Bolden back. I think him anchoring the defense and allowing Carey to move to the 4 is the best play for us.
Click to expand...

At least you didn't quote yourself. But still...shameless. :(
 
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If it's either/or I almost can't believe I am saying it, but for me it would be Jav. I used to joke that most games he had more fouls than points. But go rewatch the second half of the ACC championship game. FL State was big and long, and Jav ripped down some man sized rebounds. He chipped in 6 points too. He really came on strong in March. Plus he played well against MSU too.

Obviously I would like both back.
 
jwill133 said:
I'm all for having Javin back, think there is a role for him. IMO Bolden not only is the better player with the higher ceiling, he also fits better with next years team.
Neither Hurt nor Carey are "back to the basket" traditional post guys. Javin is the furthest thing from that too, however Bolden could be that guy.

Plus...were gonna need a lot of rim protection with Hurt on the floor, give me Bolden near the rim any day of the week over Javin.
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I'm all about needing a rim protector, so I can't disagree with your last point, although I don't think Bolden is that much better than Jav in that category.

But I'm wondering why you think we need a "back to the basket" big man. I just don't think that's a requirement to be a national-title contender in today's college basketball game. You need good defense. You need guys who can run the floor. You need outside shooting, a good point guard. Athletes who can crash the glass, etc. But "having a back to the basket big man" wouldn't crack my top ten for things I'd wish for a Duke basketball team.

We actually saw this with Jah, who was a GREAT back to the basket college big man. We were better offensively without him on the floor. I know it's heresy to say that, but the numbers bear it out. We were better offensively with Plumlee over Jah. Jah was 100x better than Plumlee in the post, but we were better with Plumlee knowing his role, crashing the boards, dishing out offensive rebounds to an open three-point shooter, etc., than we were with Jah shooting 66% from the floor. And there's no way Ques is shooting 66% from the floor next season.

I still like Bolden and want him back. I just value your opinion in general so was wondering why you thought having a back to the basket big man on our team next year was necessarily a plus.
 
DukeJim99 said:
I'm all about needing a rim protector, so I can't disagree with your last point, although I don't think Bolden is that much better than Jav in that category.

But I'm wondering why you think we need a "back to the basket" big man. I just don't think that's a requirement to be a national-title contender in today's college basketball game. You need good defense. You need guys who can run the floor. You need outside shooting, a good point guard. Athletes who can crash the glass, etc. But "having a back to the basket big man" wouldn't crack my top ten for things I'd wish for a Duke basketball team.

We actually saw this with Jah, who was a GREAT back to the basket college big man. We were better offensively without him on the floor. I know it's heresy to say that, but the numbers bear it out. We were better offensively with Plumlee over Jah. Jah was 100x better than Plumlee in the post, but we were better with Plumlee knowing his role, crashing the boards, dishing out offensive rebounds to an open three-point shooter, etc., than we were with Jah shooting 66% from the floor. And there's no way Ques is shooting 66% from the floor next season.

I still like Bolden and want him back. I just value your opinion in general so was wondering why you thought having a back to the basket big man on our team next year was necessarily a plus.
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I agree that in 2019 it is not essential for a championship caliber team to have a "back to the basket" big. Heck, the last 2 champions, Nova and UVA did not have a guy you can dump it down and he will get you a bucket. I hear you there.

I'm not so sure that in 2015 we were actually better the whole season without big Jah. I'd have to look a bit more into that. However, yes...when we made our run in the tournament, and especially the title game, we were better without Jah.
I don't know though, throughout the regular season, Jah was a FORCE. The game @ Wisconsin for example, big Jah destroyed them. The UCONN game in December that we played terrible in, we lose to a BAD UCONN team without being able to dump it down to Jah. Jah dominated UNC twice.

Our offense the whole season was throw it down to Jah and surround him with shooters. It worked and was elite. We also took off that year when K moved Amile to the bench and started Matt Jones. Added a shooter and subtracted a non-shooter (which is what we needed to surround Jah with.)

Marques is not Jah, and he will never be. Again, I agree, adding Marques to our current roster isn't a MUST, I just see it as another weapon in K's arsenal. Next year's team is gonna have 2 bigs (Carey and Hurt) that can stretch the floor, definitely wouldn't hurt to play 1 of those guys with Bolden who can handle the paint and occasionally get us an easy bucket.
 
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jwill133 said:
I agree that in 2019 it is not essential for a championship caliber team to have a "back to the basket" big. Heck, the last 2 champions, Nova and UVA did not have a guy you can dump it down and he will get you a bucket. I hear you there.

I'm not so sure that in 2015 we were actually better the whole season without big Jah. I'd have to look a bit more into that. However, yes...when we made our run in the tournament, and especially the title game, we were better without Jah.
I don't know though, throughout the regular season, Jah was a FORCE. The game @ Wisconsin for example, big Jah destroyed them. The UCONN game in December that we played terrible in, we lose to a BAD UCONN team without being able to dump it down to Jah. Jah dominated UNC twice.

Our offense the whole season was throw it down to Jah and surround him with shooters. It worked and was elite. We also took off that year when K moved Amile to the bench and started Matt Jones. Added a shooter and subtracted a non-shooter (which is what we needed to surround Jah with.)

Marques is not Jah, and he will never be. Again, I agree, adding Marques to our current roster isn't a MUST, I just see it as another weapon in K's arsenal. Next year's team is gonna have 2 bigs (Carey and Hurt) that can stretch the floor, definitely wouldn't hurt to play 1 of those guys with Bolden who can handle the paint and occasionally get us an easy bucket.
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It's never a perfect apples to apples comparison, and Plumlee's sample size wasn't huge, but I distinctly remember the stats being we were better with Plumlee that Jah on the offensive end. Which surprised me. I think nobody would have been shocked to learn we were a better defensive team with Plumlee on the court than with Jah. But offensively? That surprised me.

A big part of it was our shooters that year. If you have mediocre 3-point shooting, then having Jah instead of Plumlee as an offensive weapon might be critical. But we shot almost 40% from 3 that year. So, we were often better off shooting the three than taking even a good two-point attempt.

But the other parts were bad free throw shooting and that Jah turned the ball over a lot. When you're 50% from the line and you turn the ball over a lot, even shooting 66% from the field doesn't turn you into a "plus" for a team that is top 3 in the country in offensive efficiency.
 
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The game has changed, but there still needs to be someone of a little size and strength so we don’t give up 2nd and 3rd scoring opportunities. The fact that a guy is mobile only makes it better.
 
Man Bolden over Javin all day long. half the season Javin looks like he doesn't even belong in the ACC. Then he has a few stretches of games where he doesn't foul every 30 seconds and he catches the ball. Bolden has size to compete in the lane and he actually has shown that he can affect the game on the defensive end. He's definitely a much better defender. Give me Bolden
 
chov1125 said:
The point Im trying to make is that by saying he is lacking effort is suggesting he is not out there trying. In my head I picture a guy being the last one up and down the court each possession and then just standing around. That’s not Ques. In fact I see him motoring down the court most possessions depending on how long he’s been in the game. He’s giving effort. There’s an extra gear he’s never been able to locate because again I don’t believe it comes natural or is comfortable to him. If you agree with that we agree on the point as a whole and we can move on. I wasn’t trying to get into an argument about the meaning of words, I was just trying to explain my point, if one was in there, haha.
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I think there is a difference between intensity and effort.

I agree, there is effort by Bolden. But I think it's a personality/mental aspect. He tries his best, I believe, but he does often go up and down with intensity. I think he sometimes lacks confidence and other times he is mentally passive and therefore physically passive.

You see this in kids all the time. Some kids are trying but that extra intensity and super competitiveness is missing. One kid has it; another kid is just still at a passive level. He hasn't tapped into what his body can do b/c he hasn't developed that mental intensity.

I remember the first time that kicked in for me. We used to race in our neighborhood and I was never very fast. I thought I was running in a race but didn't have a mental competitiveness. Then I was racing a younger kid who was considered really fast - more than most kids. I didn't want to be embarrassed so something just clicked and I just amped it up. And I destroyed the kid and others in the race. It was a moment I will never forget. Something clicked and I understood the difference.
 
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TheDude1 said:
I can't believe either one would go.
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I hope they both come back, have a great senior year, improve and go high(er) in the NBA draft. They can graduate (which is a big deal) and have a more secure future. I think that if they both leave, the best they can hope for is the G-league or overseas. Except for injury, I think they have a better chance of making the big league if they stay next year.
 
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I'd love to be wrong but it's highly unlikely we get both back. At this point I'd be thrilled getting either one back.
 
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