The past two games we have seen our more conventional "4 out 1 in" (drive and kick or feed post kick it back out) style offense that Grayson seems more comfortable with... and Wendell is operating more efficiently.... Should K stick to this lineup and offense style VS. clogging up the middle with Marvin and Wendell trying to play HIGH -LOW all game...Thoughts Please??? GO DUKE!!!
Better Offense......
- Thread starter seminole-dog
- Start date
I think so. Even if we go "3 out 2 in", I still want to see drive and kick or feed and kick. And I want Grayson to be our primary option on offense and for the O to run through him. Bagley and Carter will still be very effective by crashing the boards and getting putbacks.
Was having similar thoughts. The lane is just so open when Bags is out. Agree with the above poster, Grayson should continue to be or primary option. He needs to be more selfish.
Our ceiling will only be reached when Bagley is out there, considering he is the most talented player in the country. Our offense is fine with or without Bagley, it's the whole thing called defense that gives us fits.
One nice thing lately, is the pace of our offense has really slowed down, part of this is due to Grayson handling the ball more, he plays more deliberate than Trevon, and were just impossible to guard for a full 30 seconds.
We have obviously been scouted to the maximum in regards to playing through our bigs, every coach knows our offense. I don't really think the offense should be ran through anyone when our Starting five is out there. Grayson needs to continue the aggression, and Duval needs to keep making strides, everything else will fall into place. Those 2 things happen, and we can't be stopped.
One nice thing lately, is the pace of our offense has really slowed down, part of this is due to Grayson handling the ball more, he plays more deliberate than Trevon, and were just impossible to guard for a full 30 seconds.
We have obviously been scouted to the maximum in regards to playing through our bigs, every coach knows our offense. I don't really think the offense should be ran through anyone when our Starting five is out there. Grayson needs to continue the aggression, and Duval needs to keep making strides, everything else will fall into place. Those 2 things happen, and we can't be stopped.
Absolutely Not! He’s probably the 4th best player on the team. Bagley is our best option. Do you realize we were a top 2 offense in America with Bagley being the vocal point? I like Grayson but come on now. What Grayson needs to do is be shot ready and make his shots. He’s too old to lack confidence and aggression because a better player is getting the ball more. We need him to keep spotting up and shooting threes. If he can score 12-15 with Bagley back then we are in great shape
The difference right now is Grayson is making some open shots. He wasn't doing that for the better part of two months. I'd rather get Marvin and Grayson both clicking than to suggest we might be better without one of the best players in the country.
Now, suggesting that Marvin being banged up could have been a blessing in disguise for Grayson to get him going? That I can buy. Grayson has to do what he's done the last two games. We absolutely need him being assertive. Even when Marvin returns.
I think sometimes we tend to get cute with our thinking because something looks different in such a small sample size. Grayson gets opportunities with Marvin in the lineup, as well. Hell, he's second on the team in shot attempts. He's just shot it poorly most of the year. Like I said, maybe this is the kick in the butt he needed to get going.
Now, suggesting that Marvin being banged up could have been a blessing in disguise for Grayson to get him going? That I can buy. Grayson has to do what he's done the last two games. We absolutely need him being assertive. Even when Marvin returns.
I think sometimes we tend to get cute with our thinking because something looks different in such a small sample size. Grayson gets opportunities with Marvin in the lineup, as well. Hell, he's second on the team in shot attempts. He's just shot it poorly most of the year. Like I said, maybe this is the kick in the butt he needed to get going.
Our offense was never lacking (minus the clumsy turnovers). This is the highest rated offense we've ever had in the KenPom era (2002-present). The defensive side of the ball is what will make or break our season. Some games we look pretty solid. And other nights... well, other nights you wonder if the assassination of dribble penetration and wide open shots will ever end.
There are more than one reason why Allen has shot poorly almost all season but he may have taken care of one of them in the last two games and specifically last night.
Grayson's been in the "fake first" mode all darn year! The first thing he does on the perimeter when receiving a pass, well in the lane as well after a drive, is fake!
The defense quit going for his fakes long ago.
Did you all noticed he stopped that last night? Well he did for the most part, and of course you never want to eliminate the fake completely...
If he continues to be ready to shoot when receiving perimeter passes and only fake occasionally then he'll be fine, and his fake will be more effective as well.
Grayson's been in the "fake first" mode all darn year! The first thing he does on the perimeter when receiving a pass, well in the lane as well after a drive, is fake!
The defense quit going for his fakes long ago.
Did you all noticed he stopped that last night? Well he did for the most part, and of course you never want to eliminate the fake completely...
If he continues to be ready to shoot when receiving perimeter passes and only fake occasionally then he'll be fine, and his fake will be more effective as well.
This is fact, he is making quicker decisions and has stopped the herky-jerkiness once he catches the ball.
He has also stopped getting called for his once-a-game push off offensive foul with the elbow while driving the middle of the lane, that's a plus.
wendell and bagley can still operate in the post, but i think they do need to move a bit more to open the driving lanes and screen more effectively and not rush back into the post and take away the lane that may have been made....we can also still play 4 out and 1 with bag/carter...carter has shown a good jumpshot and that will open driving lanes
And here's probably the main point so far in this thread.
Every team looks good when they make shots. If we hadn't made shots last night the outcome would have looked much different. We still had a barrage of early and silly turnovers. Those need to be eliminated. Our offense is good even when we're turning it over....imagine what we could do protecting the ball?
If we can keep Grayson going and cut down on careless turnovers we're a much better team.
Like many have said, we don’t need to change a thing when Marvin comes back. Grayson has been getting plenty of shots in our offense all year. He has been in an extended shooting slump. Not only does that mean mjsssd shots but it also means he passes up other shots due to lack of confidence. If Grayson and Gary shoot the rest of the year like they have been shooting recently, we won’t lose. But I also don’t think they can keep this up the rest of the year, they are shooting at a ridiculous clip right now.
Like many others have said, we still made plenty of mistakes last night, mostly turnovers. We actually did a good job on the glass but I think a part of this is Tech not being built for crashing, just not a strength of theirs.
We throw into a lot of tight windows. Partially due to lack of maturity, partially due to lack of experience playing together. Keep in mind when we turnover our roster every year, we never build the type of on court chemistry other teams due that have multiple years together as a group.
I don’t like the zone, but I’m happy we are going to pick a defense and stick to it. We seem to be playing sort of a matchup zone which is interesting and I think over time we can make it effective. I say I don’t like zone because it slows down the pace of the game and I still believe our strength is offense, name transition offense. We have two all Americans bigs that can run the floor and score in the open court. We make most of our turnovers in the half court when we stare down our passes our try forcing the ball into tight windows because we think that is where he ball should go. If we can secure the glass and limit turnovers I don’t think any team is going to outsfore us regardless of what defense we play.
Like many others have said, we still made plenty of mistakes last night, mostly turnovers. We actually did a good job on the glass but I think a part of this is Tech not being built for crashing, just not a strength of theirs.
We throw into a lot of tight windows. Partially due to lack of maturity, partially due to lack of experience playing together. Keep in mind when we turnover our roster every year, we never build the type of on court chemistry other teams due that have multiple years together as a group.
I don’t like the zone, but I’m happy we are going to pick a defense and stick to it. We seem to be playing sort of a matchup zone which is interesting and I think over time we can make it effective. I say I don’t like zone because it slows down the pace of the game and I still believe our strength is offense, name transition offense. We have two all Americans bigs that can run the floor and score in the open court. We make most of our turnovers in the half court when we stare down our passes our try forcing the ball into tight windows because we think that is where he ball should go. If we can secure the glass and limit turnovers I don’t think any team is going to outsfore us regardless of what defense we play.
The neat thing about the last couple of games is the ball movement. No one can deny how talented Bagley is, but the last couple games, more so last night, the ball movement was really good. Every one was moving the ball around, which leads to more open looks. Carter had 13 and 13 with a smile.
It's a very fair thing to suggest that when Bagley comes back that he is as pass happy as the others. I believe his game won't suffer at all, but everyone benefits in the style we played last night.
This was the Duke basketball that we have seen for years, and we are more dangerous playing this way because we have the bigs to rebound.
It's a very fair thing to suggest that when Bagley comes back that he is as pass happy as the others. I believe his game won't suffer at all, but everyone benefits in the style we played last night.
This was the Duke basketball that we have seen for years, and we are more dangerous playing this way because we have the bigs to rebound.
I think we can easily go back to the 3 out-2 in approach. Carter and Bagley just need to be a bit more mindful to kick back out a bit more than they were doing previously. It became painfully obvious to defenders if we got the ball into the post that those two were going to shoot no matter how many bodies were around them.
Maybe coach can tweak the offense to look more like a 4 out-1 in situations. Bagley is certainly capable to play around the permiter more and crash boards. That may lead to some match-up advantages of Bagley pulling a big man defender out of the lane and openign it up for Allen/Duval. Or if they stick a smaller forward on him then pull Carter out and drop Bagley in. The beautiful things that could be done going forward are limitless.
Honest question, is Marvin one of the best players in the country RIGHT NOW in terms of system offense or any kind of defense?
I would argue he's pretty good at both, but not elite or consistent.
Now, could he be? Of course. The dude has tools that literally no one else in college has. He is easily the best post scorer this year and maybe in the last 5 years. His free throws are still raw and his shot is coming along, but the dude is amazing at getting the ball in the hole on his own.
My overall point is that there's no need to keep trotting out our best 5 guys as a unit if the efficiency numbers look bad. Let's work him back in with Carter, but be quick to play one of them at a time if we start to drag. Bolden/Jav/White are great complementary pieces. We don't need two Shaqs out there. They become redundant. It would be better to have one Shaq and one great weakside player (like a Robert Horry). Ideally, Carter and Bagley would each take turns being Big Shot Bob. Maybe Coach K can get them to see it that way too.
I trust Coach K to find that magic rotation that gets the job done. I'm excited to see Bolden and Jav starting to find their roles. Marques finally looks like he's having fun.
But we have been having our most efficient season offensively since they’ve been keeping the stat. Our defense is no better than it has been all year. We’re still in the 70s I believe. Remember we went on that win streak early in conference play? Bagley was out there and we weren’t playing this much zone. I’m just trying to figure out why people are saying Bagley and Carter shouldn’t play as much together now. It makes no sense.
I agree with all this. The last 2 games were a perfect time for Marvin to sit, given the matchups. We really do need him against Clemson though, and obviously need him moving forward.
Wendell is much more polished offensively than Marvin, he has better touch, better passer, better post moves, and also better footwork. However, Marvin has something that really no one else in the country has, out of this world athleticism and leaping ability, that 2nd jump rebound that he can do is something I have never seen in college basketball before.
All of ours plays that worked in November to get Marvin the ball in the post have been scouted to a tee, they no longer work, and Marvin hasn't really adjusted to feeding out of the post to create open 3's. I think we need to run a lot more high ball-screen with Grayson having the ball, and Marvin being the screener/roller, this play should be unstoppable if teams have to respect Grayson hitting the 3.
None of the above.
We have started playing better defense, last night was our best performance of the year on that end.
We have also started playing better because our zone slows the game down, we don't have to play as much transition defense, which we are terrible at.
Some of you have mentioned Allen's shots, that he's always gotten shots, second on the team in attempts I think....
But, guys there's a difference in quantity and quality.
Allen's shots the last two games has been of much better quality. Part of that is his own fault as I mentioned earlier, not being ready to shoot, too much faking, etc.
Bagley is a heck of a player but he controls the ball too much, he too will get better quality of shots if we share it better like we have the last 2 games. Don't put words into my mouth here accusing me of saying Bags is a ball hog. I'm simply stating that many times we end up watching the ball when Marvin's got it, its fact. I think Jwill mentioned it, Marvin hasn't been nearly as effective the last several games, everything went in for a while, opponents have adjusted and that's no longer true.
Any team is better when quality shots are taken over shots taken with opponents draped all over the shooter....
Move the ball quicker, we have the last two games.
But, guys there's a difference in quantity and quality.
Allen's shots the last two games has been of much better quality. Part of that is his own fault as I mentioned earlier, not being ready to shoot, too much faking, etc.
Bagley is a heck of a player but he controls the ball too much, he too will get better quality of shots if we share it better like we have the last 2 games. Don't put words into my mouth here accusing me of saying Bags is a ball hog. I'm simply stating that many times we end up watching the ball when Marvin's got it, its fact. I think Jwill mentioned it, Marvin hasn't been nearly as effective the last several games, everything went in for a while, opponents have adjusted and that's no longer true.
Any team is better when quality shots are taken over shots taken with opponents draped all over the shooter....
Move the ball quicker, we have the last two games.
Am I the only one concerned about the number of times we ran the shot clock under 5 seconds last night?
It’s all hugs and kisses when an Allen prayer goes in at the buzzer, and then the wife said “ this is some romantic dinner”.
It’s all hugs and kisses when an Allen prayer goes in at the buzzer, and then the wife said “ this is some romantic dinner”.
We haven't been playing our typical 4-out-1-in. We've been playing two of Bolden/Carter/DeLaurier. None of them are stretch 4's. If anything, the lineups are even more inside focused. The difference has been a lot more screen and roll for the guards, and a lot less 2-man Hi/Lo action from the bigs.
The biggest change is making Grayson the primary ball handler. I think this helps keep him in the flow of the offense and he looks for his shot better. We don't need him to be 2016 Grayson though. We need him to be a better 2015 Quinn Cook.
The biggest change is making Grayson the primary ball handler. I think this helps keep him in the flow of the offense and he looks for his shot better. We don't need him to be 2016 Grayson though. We need him to be a better 2015 Quinn Cook.
Tre, Gray and Gary saw a lot of time together last night. We usually just had two bigs or a big and Javin/White.
I actually think us taking longer offensive possessions is very effective, for the simple fact that we don't have to play defense as much. But I get your point, we shouldn't rely on running down the shot clock to have Grayson throw up a prayer (they went in last night though.)
It's fairly obvious that K has adjusted our offense, for most of the season we scored with ease and 10 seconds into the shot clock, only for the opposition to come back to us and score. Our zone combined with us being more deliberate on offense has really helped, still need to see it against better competition though.
Grayson is making shots is the biggest reason we are playing better
That's correct but your blanket statement isn't enough, we have to understand why....
If we don't know why something changes then you're destined to fall right back to old ways.
I agree that us taking longer offensive possessions has helped us but I don’t think it’s because we are playing less defense I think it’s because we are playing less TRANSITION defense. When we work the ball around and take good shots we are either in a better position to get offensive rebounds or at least get back effectively on defense. Our half court defense cerainly isn’t the best but it’s our transition defense where we get torched (UNC got every long rebound in that second half and ran with it as fast as they could every time and we had no answer). When the effort on the defensive glass is there and we aren’t forcing things I think it’s our offense that improves our defense the most.
One of the reasons is that Georgia Tech isn't very good, and we were fortunate to catch Virginia Tech on an off-shooting night. That helped. Also helping is Grayson making some of the shots he's routinely missed the first six weeks of conference play.
Now, without Marvin in the lineup has it helped his confidence? Again, I think that's fair to discuss. But Grayson is a senior. I would hope he's more mentally tough than that....and I truly think he is.
Players have funks. With the exception of probably Wendell, I think we've now seen all four of the other 'starters' under the microscope and questioned. But we need all four of those guys to be really good.....and each of them has shined throughout the season. We just haven't seen the consistency we all crave.
I meant we were still playing 2 bigs all the time, and it was usually two of those 3. Bagley is closer to our traditional stretch 4 than of the three. Bolden and DeLaurier aren't pulling anyone away from the basket.
I agree 100%, and if we have Grayson performing anywhere near what he did against Tech, and everyone else does what they've been doing, I am very confident we don't lose again period.
The key is Grayson. If he doesn't make shots we won't go far. He has to suck it up and be the best 2nd or 3rd scoring option in the country. It's as simple as that. These last two games have been fine. I've seen us play offense much better on multiple occasions this season. We've shot better than 50% and had more assists multiple times this year. We shot 52% against NCSU and 55% against Miami. So that's why I'm so confused about y'all saying the offense is looking better or whatnot. We have our highest offensive rating ever this year. That didn't just skyrocket the last two games. We are an offensive juggernaut. The problem was in the games we lost we didn't play defense in those games for the entire game and Grayson. Look at his stats from losses this year:
-14 points (25% shooting)
-8 points (33%)
-5 (25%)
-7 (14%)
-9 (33%)
Even if the defense stayed the same and he just hit his average in those games, WE WIN. It all boils down to him when we play big games. Will he play like he's capable or just look like another person out there? I still say Bagley or Carter should have something to do with the play everytime we come down court. Whether it's pick-and-roll or posting up on the block. We need to play off them. Hell that's what we have been doing all year up until this point. Don't change it now because Grayson played well against a sorry team and a pretty decent team. He needs to show up in big games for us and be efficient. Those numbers that I stated above won't cut it
-14 points (25% shooting)
-8 points (33%)
-5 (25%)
-7 (14%)
-9 (33%)
Even if the defense stayed the same and he just hit his average in those games, WE WIN. It all boils down to him when we play big games. Will he play like he's capable or just look like another person out there? I still say Bagley or Carter should have something to do with the play everytime we come down court. Whether it's pick-and-roll or posting up on the block. We need to play off them. Hell that's what we have been doing all year up until this point. Don't change it now because Grayson played well against a sorry team and a pretty decent team. He needs to show up in big games for us and be efficient. Those numbers that I stated above won't cut it
Boogie mentioned it and I have been wondering too.....why not Bagley as a more traditional stretch 4? I know his long range shooting isn’t stellar, but he can knock them down, and he would have plenty of opportunities to take his defender one on one.
I love Carter down low.
I liked Duval at the 2 last night.
Alan
I love Carter down low.
I liked Duval at the 2 last night.
Alan
