Pitt fan here… let’s talk realignment
- Thread starter HailToPitt725
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First, thank you Pitt for starting this thread.
Second, I don't know what the financial environment will look like in say 7 years when the Dissenting Three start looking at breaking the GOR as being feasible. Sports will only stream on TV, no more free sports on TV, and ESPN's platform may be entirely different. Hopefully Duke football will be solid and consistent, and maybe drawing some more bodies to games on a regular basis. Could be the mega conferences won't be rolling in dough anymore due to smaller TV deals and the playing field will look different.
I just hope Hart and I are around to see what happens.
Second, I don't know what the financial environment will look like in say 7 years when the Dissenting Three start looking at breaking the GOR as being feasible. Sports will only stream on TV, no more free sports on TV, and ESPN's platform may be entirely different. Hopefully Duke football will be solid and consistent, and maybe drawing some more bodies to games on a regular basis. Could be the mega conferences won't be rolling in dough anymore due to smaller TV deals and the playing field will look different.
I just hope Hart and I are around to see what happens.
You’re overestimating Dukes strengths when looked at by other conferences. I agree Dukes chances of being offered by another conference are often prematurely dismissed. Basketball is a small factor.
Duke could get in to appease Big 10 presidents against more expansion. Carolina has more alumni. More fans which drives the tv ratings.
Why is Miami not coveted by the Big 10. There are several reasons but one of the majors is no one goes to their games. This is a black eye for Duke and Miami when no one attends conference games.
Basketball is all about the NCAA tournament money wise. The ratings for the reg season are terrible
I wouldn’t go that far but given the way the Pac 12 additions are playing assuming FSU and Clemson go in, Dukes perceived weakness in fb may be more attractive. Every conference wants a couple Vanderbilts I think Duke will be better than that with Elko at the helm but I’m talking perception
Agree. Money drives the train, and football makes the money. Duke and football just don’t sell.
Football largely drives the train, yes. And even to a greater extent it did this time. But there is no way the ACC accepts Stanford if they were not one of the most prestigious academic schools in the country. Keep Stanford's athletic profile but say its academics were average SEC school, never happens. Cal got accepted because of Stanford and the academic profile. UCLA got accepted to the BIG whatever because of academics and USC.
At the end of the day, the President's have to vote on these conference realignments, and things other than just football matters to them. Duke's prestigious academic record goes a long way in us being accepted by whatever conference Duke wants to join and decides to leave. Add to the fact there is only about three schools with a strong national profile in college basketball, and Duke by far leads that list and it is not even close, that helps. Yes, college basketball will always be the red-headed stepchild to football in these decisions, but you are beyond delusional if you for one second does not at least cross ADs minds...
Again, football is the driver. Other things are not deal breakers, but you would be nuts if you do not think at all the fact that Duke is one of the best academic institutions in the nation, combined with a pretty successful and stable athletic department, does not make Duke an attractive candidate. That is not even counting Duke football. Yea, its perception may be bad, but if you do not think for one second other ADs didn't sit up and take notice that Duke is putting its money where its mouth is and extend Elko and pay raises for the assistants...
When negotiating these television rights for conferences, football is the main driver. However, this includes all sports for the conference in the deal. Year after year, there are stories from ESPN how the women's basketball tournament is undervalued and ratings go up every year. Hell, ABC is now showing college softball, women's basketball, and baseball NCAA Tournament games. And guess what, Duke is successful or on the rise in all of those sports. Not to mention in is clear Duke clearly is putting resources into football like never before.
What does Clemson and FSU have? Just football. At least FSU could open a new media market for like the BIG duo conferences. But if one of those conferences snags Miami, FSUs stock plummets as FSU would need either of those conferences a lot more than they need FSU. And again, Clemson? They are far from a national brand in football and trying to get the 76th highest tv market in the nation is such a get...
I still say you don't hear much from Duke on conference movement because why? if the ACC implodes or Duke expresses interest in another conference, it would take less that 24 hours for them to be offered an invitation.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but still not sure I agree with your final conclusion. However, I think we’re going to find out in the next few years. Hopefully our football team will make much of this moot. A win tonight would be a big step in that direction.
It’s not just academics. Why were Cal and Stanford chosen over Oregon St which currently is in the top 20? Academics played a large role but it reflects the fact that the Acc has given up being a major player in college sports. They wanted to offset the schools about to leave and can save face in their minds by saying we’ve stuck to our ideals while everyone else has sold out to the almighty dollar.
I understand the appeal of that argument but I think it’s the only card left to play. The Big 12 was aggressive and got Utah Arizona Byu and Cincy last yr. These are passionate fan bases with large sold out stadiums. We just added two more Boston Colleges basically
I agree. Our stock rises monumentally if we can pick off FSU, Clemson, or ND thus year as well as beat the cheats.
The irony of Duke's national brand in basketball? It is because Duke was on tv all the time (they still are, but this was pre streaming and pre conference networks). Pete Gillen said Duke was on tv more than leave it to beaver reruns. Well guess what? That can be contributed to the Duke haters watching hoping Duke would lose as much as Duke fans...
I agree mostly with that except for the south Florida market. Someone may want FSU, but if they get Miami instead, they may not care about FSU anymore.
And a conference may achieve the end game of getting into the Florida market with Miami cheaper than getting FSU
Whatever happens this year has little to with the long term trajectory of things. If an Sec or Big 10 team want Elko they’ll double what we can pay and he’s gone.
FSU has three times the alumni base, twice the ratings. Have you watched a Miami game lately? Middle Tenn St blew them out last yr in front of 10k “fans”. Its student population are mostly rich kids who couldn’t get into a real school and are as dumb as a sack of hammers. When they “ graduate” they move back into their parents’ basement and give zero back to the U. Most of the people at the games leave at halftime
My only point bringing up the ACC expansion was ultimately that if Stanford was not one of the top schools academically in the country, this does not happen.
I bring up academics because at the end of the day, the President's are the ones that have to give the final approval. A lot of Presidents are like former OSU Pres Gordon Gee who athletics are it, but a good number are not like that. And if you never worked with and around college staff, administration, etc..., you do not realize how far some are detached from how non-academic world works. Academics, to them, is HUGE in their decision-making process. That is why a school like WVa, even if it had a great athletic department, has no shot to EVER be in the BIG Ten...
If basketballs in their heads I guess Kansas and UConn will be offered by the Big 10 any day now. Duke is a national brand but college basketball is a regional sport like MLB. If your teams doing well that’s awesome. Go Braves. If not no one cares
I agree with a lot of what you say. But you can't bring in Duke's success in Olympic sports and follow with Clemson and FSU don't bring anything but football. FSU and Clemson both have great baseball traditions, although FSU is a little shaky right now. But their softball team finished second in the NCAAs last year, they may have the best women's soccer program going, and their women's basketball program is ahead of Duke's right now. I'm not sure any of these sports moves the needle much but you brought them up.
To borrow from the old joke about real estate, the three drivers in conference realignment are football, football and football. If Olympic sports mattered then Stanford wouldn't have been left on the street corner selling apples to survive.
The multimillion dollar payouts would not exist if not for football. At the end of the day, you are going to want a seat at the table to get a piece of it. Lot easier to hang in an arms race of facilities with money if you have that coming in for your entire athletic program.
I am in Big 11 country, so I saw all this first hand. When the Big 11 talked expansion, a point constantly brought up was "all our 11 institutions are Association of American Universities institutions," so any talk of realignment had to include AAU institutions. When Nebraska was added, it waS AAU. It is not anymore, but it is trying to get back in (and doing a quick search, they were mostly kicked out because the main campus did not have medical facilities and the emphasis on agriculture research is not regarded as high as other areas by the AAU).
Guess what, everyone going to the Big whatever is an AAU school! I am sure it is all a coincidence! It could be possible if the Big whatever sets its sight on breaking into Florida, it would want Miami (AAU) over FSU (non AAU). contrast that with the SEC that just has Florida, Texas A&M, Vanderbilt, Florida, and soon to be Texas.
Again, i am not saying academics are even a big factor. But conference realignment ultimately comes down to College Presidents. I promise you that the ACC was going for OSU and WSU, that the votes would not even been at 60% and maybe even struggle for half. I was in collegiate athletics for more than 15 years, I have some knowledge of how the sausage making is done and what these academics are thinking.
Football is the OVERALL BIG driving force, i get it and wont disagree. But if when negotiating a television contract, a conference (who is negotiating for a whole conference, not just football) is idiotic if it would not leverage a very successful and national brand like Duke basketball. A national brand no college basketball program can hold a candle to brand-wise. Gotta do something to bolster thise contracts with eyeballs in December, January, and March.
I am in Ohio. Not many people have an opinion on Kansas, nor UCONN, nor North Carolina, nor any other school outside Michigan and a little more on Kentucky. But say you are a Duke fan, easily get something along the lines of "You are a fan of Duke?" outside of basketball season or a strong opinion one way or another inside basketball season.
Guess what, everyone going to the Big whatever is an AAU school! I am sure it is all a coincidence! It could be possible if the Big whatever sets its sight on breaking into Florida, it would want Miami (AAU) over FSU (non AAU). contrast that with the SEC that just has Florida, Texas A&M, Vanderbilt, Florida, and soon to be Texas.
Again, i am not saying academics are even a big factor. But conference realignment ultimately comes down to College Presidents. I promise you that the ACC was going for OSU and WSU, that the votes would not even been at 60% and maybe even struggle for half. I was in collegiate athletics for more than 15 years, I have some knowledge of how the sausage making is done and what these academics are thinking.
Football is the OVERALL BIG driving force, i get it and wont disagree. But if when negotiating a television contract, a conference (who is negotiating for a whole conference, not just football) is idiotic if it would not leverage a very successful and national brand like Duke basketball. A national brand no college basketball program can hold a candle to brand-wise. Gotta do something to bolster thise contracts with eyeballs in December, January, and March.
I am in Ohio. Not many people have an opinion on Kansas, nor UCONN, nor North Carolina, nor any other school outside Michigan and a little more on Kentucky. But say you are a Duke fan, easily get something along the lines of "You are a fan of Duke?" outside of basketball season or a strong opinion one way or another inside basketball season.
Fsu is a superior school to Miami by any measure. The Aau argument became irrelevant when they took Nebraska. As far as eyeballs go, ESPN has been hyping these regular season games for 40 years and no one watches. Miami is a horrible school and is prob the least rigorous in the conference. Nc State is not elite but it does have certain fields that it excels in as do all of the other members. Compared to Miami Va Tech might as well be MIT
I assume you've forgotten that Louisville is in the ACC.
And, no Miami is not a "horrible school."
Its ratings are respectable due to its history and “research” reputation. No employer is impressed by a degree from there and no serious students go there Whatever info you have to the contrary is bs.
Next free weekend you have drive on down to Ft Lauderdale or where ever the hell they’re playing home games this year. Report back to us when you can about how the Sec and Big 10 are dying to bring this sh show into Ohio State Michigan and Georgia Alabama.
Enough with this Miami nonsense.
I haven’t taken classes from either but I’m guessing you could go the nearest junior college and get the feel of it all
JMO, the BIG is going to go NC, Duke, Notre Dame, Miami. The SEC goes Fla St, Clemson, Virginia, Virginia Tech
Wildcards for BIG: Georgia Tech, Pitt, Syracuse
Wildcards for SEC: NC St, Louisville
Wildcards for BIG: Georgia Tech, Pitt, Syracuse
Wildcards for SEC: NC St, Louisville
Well stated Mac. The acc got outfoxed by the Big 12 and are left at the poker table with zilch when the Big 12 had a couple of pairs, the Big Ten had a full house, and the Sec had a royal flush.
The academic route is the only card left to play.
FSU and Clemson are far more respected universities than people here give them credit for.
Get on board Pisgah...we rollin'
I don’t know if you’ve noticed but FSU has had some really good basketball teams over the year. Softball is one of the fastest growing sports as is women’s soccer and FSU excels at them both. Clemson has an elite men’s soccer program. Once again the only thing you have proven is that you have no idea what you are talking about
SMU raises $100 million in seven-day stretch from key donors to support upcoming ACC move
The Mustangs won't receive TV revenue from the ACC for up to nine years upon joining in 2024
www.cbssports.com
Shows how much you know. Nebraska was an AAU school when they were accepted into the Big 11
University of Nebraska voted out of university association
The newest member of the Big Ten, the University of Nebraska – Lincoln, was voted out of the Association of American Universities — becoming the only member of the Big Ten to not be part of the association. The AAU — an association comprised of the nation’s top research universities — has never...
www.michigandaily.com
"The Big Ten unanimously voted to invite Nebraska to become a member nine months before the AAU meeting that resulted in Nebraska losing its AAU membership."
Burn. Check out Nebraskas Sat scores compared to the rest of the Acc and Big TenShows how much you know. Nebraska was an AAU school when they were accepted into the Big 11
University of Nebraska voted out of university association
The newest member of the Big Ten, the University of Nebraska – Lincoln, was voted out of the Association of American Universities — becoming the only member of the Big Ten to not be part of the association. The AAU — an association comprised of the nation’s top research universities — has never...
"The Big Ten unanimously voted to invite Nebraska to become a member nine months before the AAU meeting that resulted in Nebraska losing its AAU membership."
The bottom line with realighnment is that yes, football is the biggest driver to everything, but to deny that there are mitigating factors. Again, i used to work in collegiate athletics. While i did not personally work with other faculty often, i did have a seat at the table to what the President and faculty eere doing. I had an AD that, in his time, was a coach, professor, and AD. Remember the final say on expansion lies with the presidents. I PROMISE YOU that there were three or four yes votes to the addition to Cal and Stanford simply because of the academic aspect those two teams bring to the ACC. When the big 11 expanded, huge football fans who do not give a crap about academics (and clearly never have nor never will step inside a big 11 classroom) were constantly bringing up "We need to bring in an AAU school." To speak of Nebraska, they eere much more promising athletically in the 2010s and I think conferences are truly not going to want the reputation of forcing someone out.
As for Duke, I am of the opinion we will never be left out in the cold. When you combine a brand that draws eyeballs nationally like no other in basketball (and i do not think anyone is even close) and the fact Duke is one of the top 10 academic schools among NCAA Division I teams in the country. Elko and Duke's clear commitment to football only help.
I guess I can see Florida State, but Clemson throwing its weight around like other conferences are dying to add them makes no sense. Clemson needs the ACC more than any other scenario. The SEC is fine with football and already has South Carolina. What value does Clemson add to the SEC, Big 11, or BIG 12? Nothing.
And again, you are kidding yourself if you think there is not at least some talk about academics with the conference presidents.
As for Duke, I am of the opinion we will never be left out in the cold. When you combine a brand that draws eyeballs nationally like no other in basketball (and i do not think anyone is even close) and the fact Duke is one of the top 10 academic schools among NCAA Division I teams in the country. Elko and Duke's clear commitment to football only help.
I guess I can see Florida State, but Clemson throwing its weight around like other conferences are dying to add them makes no sense. Clemson needs the ACC more than any other scenario. The SEC is fine with football and already has South Carolina. What value does Clemson add to the SEC, Big 11, or BIG 12? Nothing.
And again, you are kidding yourself if you think there is not at least some talk about academics with the conference presidents.
I mean there may be “some discussion” about academics but it has virtually nothing to do with the realignment decisions being made. The ACC panicked and offered the only two PAC schools worth a nickel and I don’t even get the SMU addition.
As for Duke, I’ve said for a while we have to hope we pick it up in football. Elko needs to stick around when he will be pursued by bigger football programs. We need to find ways to fill the stadium. We need to stay competitive. Basketball can only do so much. Hoping for the best.
