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Jack, Leadership, Closure

BeerPoisoning

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Feb 17, 2019
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Note: This is gonna be kinda long, but I think unmentioned stuff worthy of discussion.

In the first half of the season (>early feb) I had said on here that our choreography in the half-court offense was usually well executed. We just couldn’t make shots. I got to thinking yesterday, we O-boarded substantially better on offense, boarded better defensively too. Shot more FTs. I don’t think our defense was ever bad, but it seemed like we forced way more steals early on in the year. More transition offense too. I started going through our box scores, right on the money. Couple exceptions but with reasoning (ie: high O-Reb vs UNC high possession game) — I’m not claiming that we didn’t take any bad shots early on. Collectively as a team we made more of an effort to get a high-percentage shot because everyone was moving.

Bobby Knight invented the motion offense and he has a famous quote about it — “If you’re not moving then you’re doing it wrong!!!”

Skip games during Z’s injury, fast forward to ACC / NCAA Tournament..... Wtf happened? We were statues. Someone would set an on-ball pick and then everyone stood still and stared, ISO watching. Zion(or RJ) chillin’ on one wing, Cam’s the same on the other. Tre’s chillin in the corner or up top. RJ or Z driving into pack-line or pulling up a three. We went from motion offense to no-motion offense. For the most part, we were solidly defending teams. But we didn’t have that energy (motivation? intensity?) in the passing lanes. Overall on both sides of the ball, we never had momentum and that translates into energy that powers the extra effort.

With all the mid-season injuries it’s easy to forget that we once looked pretty healthy in the half-court set and ran a real offense. We may have shot the ball piss poor all year, but we comfortably survived most games because everyone was collectively active.

I need an answer, why we were different?
Watched some parts of games from first half of the season and I noticed something — Nearly every time we brought the ball up the court (non-transition), JACK WHITE is jogging up the court parallel to Tre and giving signals. Immediately he starts the movement with someone, this forces everyone else to MOVE (rotate, cut, screen, etc.) in order to keep proper spacing. Teams still played a condensed defense against us, but our off-ball movement tangled defenders, opened up cuts and open 3’s. Most importantly there was openings to attack the basket, which made a lot of attempts result in FTs rather than turnover / poor choice. Defensively, Jack’s hustle created the energy that powered the extra intensity notch. (Steals translating into transition offense)

He was an underrated defensive rebounder. I’ve never been shy about scoffing at metrics, but I can’t statistically translate my point of his contribution because of minutes played gap. His D-Reb% was 1% lower than Zion’s. He was also a great offensive rebounder, but the fact that he kept the offense moving (more basket cutting, less perimeter napping) translated into more 2nd chances because we didn’t have everyone 20ft+ from the basket. Our offensive rebounding would of fell off even worse if Javin wasn’t a magician at finding quick position after screening.

If you look at everything on paper, Jack means virtually nothing. On both sides of the ball he was a VOCAL LEADER. As inconsequential as his existence/contribution seemed, especially with the poor shooting slump, he made all the difference. He virtually controlled the offense without even touching the ball. I think this also creates a defense for Coach K’s offense choice. Although we weren’t a good shooting team, proper movement made this motion set best utilize our personnel. We’re slashers and space with movement is only way to free the paint.

To keep it real, I just wanted some closure on this season. I wanted a real answer that explained the disappointment. It still sucks, but I feel better knowing that Jack’s injuries took away the mandatory element of leadership. I didn’t want to believe or join the “K can’t coach anymore” camp or believe that these guys weren’t a good team. — Thoughts?
 
I was complaining and worried about our half court offense from day 1. I think it always stunk. The Gonzaga game was the real eye opener for me just how stagnant our offense looked compared to theirs. The rest, I’ll let the more knowledgeable guys chime in. :)
 
I think part of it was that at the beginning of the year we were getting where we wanted to get on the offensive end...if that makes sense. RJ was able to get to any spot he wanted early. Then there was tape out on us and teams started to force RJ right, double Zion, etc. PLUS everyone, including us, found out just how bad we were shooting the ball. When you couple that with the fact that teams starting being super careful with the ball, so we couldn't get out in transition, things became super stagnant.
It's hard to get motion going on the offensive end when everything is packed in. I still thought we could have put in at least a secondary break everytime down the floor to get things moving. A simple pass to the wing and a UCLA cut to the basket......something simple, but at least some motion.
 
Note: This is gonna be kinda long, but I think unmentioned stuff worthy of discussion.

In the first half of the season (>early feb) I had said on here that our choreography in the half-court offense was usually well executed. We just couldn’t make shots. I got to thinking yesterday, we O-boarded substantially better on offense, boarded better defensively too. Shot more FTs. I don’t think our defense was ever bad, but it seemed like we forced way more steals early on in the year. More transition offense too. I started going through our box scores, right on the money. Couple exceptions but with reasoning (ie: high O-Reb vs UNC high possession game) — I’m not claiming that we didn’t take any bad shots early on. Collectively as a team we made more of an effort to get a high-percentage shot because everyone was moving.

Bobby Knight invented the motion offense and he has a famous quote about it — “If you’re not moving then you’re doing it wrong!!!”

Skip games during Z’s injury, fast forward to ACC / NCAA Tournament..... Wtf happened? We were statues. Someone would set an on-ball pick and then everyone stood still and stared, ISO watching. Zion(or RJ) chillin’ on one wing, Cam’s the same on the other. Tre’s chillin in the corner or up top. RJ or Z driving into pack-line or pulling up a three. We went from motion offense to no-motion offense. For the most part, we were solidly defending teams. But we didn’t have that energy (motivation? intensity?) in the passing lanes. Overall on both sides of the ball, we never had momentum and that translates into energy that powers the extra effort.

With all the mid-season injuries it’s easy to forget that we once looked pretty healthy in the half-court set and ran a real offense. We may have shot the ball piss poor all year, but we comfortably survived most games because everyone was collectively active.

I need an answer, why we were different?
Watched some parts of games from first half of the season and I noticed something — Nearly every time we brought the ball up the court (non-transition), JACK WHITE is jogging up the court parallel to Tre and giving signals. Immediately he starts the movement with someone, this forces everyone else to MOVE (rotate, cut, screen, etc.) in order to keep proper spacing. Teams still played a condensed defense against us, but our off-ball movement tangled defenders, opened up cuts and open 3’s. Most importantly there was openings to attack the basket, which made a lot of attempts result in FTs rather than turnover / poor choice. Defensively, Jack’s hustle created the energy that powered the extra intensity notch. (Steals translating into transition offense)

He was an underrated defensive rebounder. I’ve never been shy about scoffing at metrics, but I can’t statistically translate my point of his contribution because of minutes played gap. His D-Reb% was 1% lower than Zion’s. He was also a great offensive rebounder, but the fact that he kept the offense moving (more basket cutting, less perimeter napping) translated into more 2nd chances because we didn’t have everyone 20ft+ from the basket. Our offensive rebounding would of fell off even worse if Javin wasn’t a magician at finding quick position after screening.

If you look at everything on paper, Jack means virtually nothing. On both sides of the ball he was a VOCAL LEADER. As inconsequential as his existence/contribution seemed, especially with the poor shooting slump, he made all the difference. He virtually controlled the offense without even touching the ball. I think this also creates a defense for Coach K’s offense choice. Although we weren’t a good shooting team, proper movement made this motion set best utilize our personnel. We’re slashers and space with movement is only way to free the paint.

To keep it real, I just wanted some closure on this season. I wanted a real answer that explained the disappointment. It still sucks, but I feel better knowing that Jack’s injuries took away the mandatory element of leadership. I didn’t want to believe or join the “K can’t coach anymore” camp or believe that these guys weren’t a good team. — Thoughts?

I have said on this board multiple times Jack White is our BEST COMMUNICATOR on the court. Thoughtful and interesting post BP! Well done....OFC
 
We were never a great offensive half court team. We got a ton of points in transition and were one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the country.

Once teams figured out to let us shoot 3s and limit live ball turnovers at all costs we found ourselves in a lot of tough games.

Also, Iso and let our top 5 draft pick is exactly how we beat UVA the first time.
 
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I was complaining and worried about our half court offense from day 1. I think it always stunk. The Gonzaga game was the real eye opener for me just how stagnant our offense looked compared to theirs. The rest, I’ll let the more knowledgeable guys chime in. :)

The half-court offense at Duke has not been very good since about 1994. I say that without exaggeration.

K just does not do much at all with it and it bothers me as well.

But, it is particularly bad with the OADs. He pretty much lets them go one on one, rather than implementing a motion offense. I understand the challenges of OADs learning an offense but they aren't dumb. They got into Duke. TEACH!
 
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I think part of it was that at the beginning of the year we were getting where we wanted to get on the offensive end...if that makes sense. RJ was able to get to any spot he wanted early. Then there was tape out on us and teams started to force RJ right, double Zion, etc. PLUS everyone, including us, found out just how bad we were shooting the ball. When you couple that with the fact that teams starting being super careful with the ball, so we couldn't get out in transition, things became super stagnant.
It's hard to get motion going on the offensive end when everything is packed in. I still thought we could have put in at least a secondary break everytime down the floor to get things moving. A simple pass to the wing and a UCLA cut to the basket......something simple, but at least some motion.

Ehhhhh..... We played Gonzaga pretty early on and they showed the blueprint. Our offense was shaky in the 1st half but it really looked good in the 2nd half, we almost climbed out of a 15 point hole. Bolden couldn’t play defense to save his life in the 1st half and Zags shot like 75%, we should have won that. We comfortably won quite a few games. We didn’t have the best offensive outing against TxTech but I mean they have the best defense in the country. We had no issues in transition until the tournaments and full (starter) health. No Jack, no runnin’

It’s fair to assume teams are more careful come tourney time but MSU was literally in the bottom 10 of 353 teams in turnovers. We couldn’t pick a pass the final 7 games. I don’t think everyone just woke up the day they played Duke and inherited a temporary splash of Chris Paul decision making.
 
Note: This is gonna be kinda long, but I think unmentioned stuff worthy of discussion.

In the first half of the season (>early feb) I had said on here that our choreography in the half-court offense was usually well executed. We just couldn’t make shots. I got to thinking yesterday, we O-boarded substantially better on offense, boarded better defensively too. Shot more FTs. I don’t think our defense was ever bad, but it seemed like we forced way more steals early on in the year. More transition offense too. I started going through our box scores, right on the money. Couple exceptions but with reasoning (ie: high O-Reb vs UNC high possession game) — I’m not claiming that we didn’t take any bad shots early on. Collectively as a team we made more of an effort to get a high-percentage shot because everyone was moving.

Bobby Knight invented the motion offense and he has a famous quote about it — “If you’re not moving then you’re doing it wrong!!!”

Skip games during Z’s injury, fast forward to ACC / NCAA Tournament..... Wtf happened? We were statues. Someone would set an on-ball pick and then everyone stood still and stared, ISO watching. Zion(or RJ) chillin’ on one wing, Cam’s the same on the other. Tre’s chillin in the corner or up top. RJ or Z driving into pack-line or pulling up a three. We went from motion offense to no-motion offense. For the most part, we were solidly defending teams. But we didn’t have that energy (motivation? intensity?) in the passing lanes. Overall on both sides of the ball, we never had momentum and that translates into energy that powers the extra effort.

With all the mid-season injuries it’s easy to forget that we once looked pretty healthy in the half-court set and ran a real offense. We may have shot the ball piss poor all year, but we comfortably survived most games because everyone was collectively active.

I need an answer, why we were different?
Watched some parts of games from first half of the season and I noticed something — Nearly every time we brought the ball up the court (non-transition), JACK WHITE is jogging up the court parallel to Tre and giving signals. Immediately he starts the movement with someone, this forces everyone else to MOVE (rotate, cut, screen, etc.) in order to keep proper spacing. Teams still played a condensed defense against us, but our off-ball movement tangled defenders, opened up cuts and open 3’s. Most importantly there was openings to attack the basket, which made a lot of attempts result in FTs rather than turnover / poor choice. Defensively, Jack’s hustle created the energy that powered the extra intensity notch. (Steals translating into transition offense)

He was an underrated defensive rebounder. I’ve never been shy about scoffing at metrics, but I can’t statistically translate my point of his contribution because of minutes played gap. His D-Reb% was 1% lower than Zion’s. He was also a great offensive rebounder, but the fact that he kept the offense moving (more basket cutting, less perimeter napping) translated into more 2nd chances because we didn’t have everyone 20ft+ from the basket. Our offensive rebounding would of fell off even worse if Javin wasn’t a magician at finding quick position after screening.

If you look at everything on paper, Jack means virtually nothing. On both sides of the ball he was a VOCAL LEADER. As inconsequential as his existence/contribution seemed, especially with the poor shooting slump, he made all the difference. He virtually controlled the offense without even touching the ball. I think this also creates a defense for Coach K’s offense choice. Although we weren’t a good shooting team, proper movement made this motion set best utilize our personnel. We’re slashers and space with movement is only way to free the paint.

To keep it real, I just wanted some closure on this season. I wanted a real answer that explained the disappointment. It still sucks, but I feel better knowing that Jack’s injuries took away the mandatory element of leadership. I didn’t want to believe or join the “K can’t coach anymore” camp or believe that these guys weren’t a good team. — Thoughts?

Well said. Personally, I’m good with the offense based on the numbers. Other teams have offensive issues as well so I try to look at the whole picture. The main thing with me is shot selection on offense - each championship team runs different stuff but they usually have good shot selection (including making sure the right person is shooting it). K’s always had good offensive teams. Only issue was just fixing Cam’s driving and either stop giving him the green light or get him in better spots - still surprised he didn’t do more in the mid-range.

Jack White - I’m stunned at how the year went for him. We really needed his early year impact against MSU.

Anybody who thinks K still doesn’t have it needs to go back and watch the end of the FSU (@ Tally) and UL games. I know you didn’t say that but just putting it out there.

Lastly, our season is unfortunately judged on the end result in a single elimination tournament of two 20 minute halves. Imagine how difficult last year was for UVA fans failing to get it together in their game when they were clearly the best team all year or UK fans in ‘15 (horrible end game shot selections from that Harrison kid). The team eclipsed 30 wins, got the ACC and only lost twice fully healthy (MSU really wasn’t 100% healthy). As Zion said - win some lose some.
 
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Ehhhhh..... We played Gonzaga pretty early on and they showed the blueprint. Our offense was shaky in the 1st half but it really looked good in the 2nd half, we almost climbed out of a 15 point hole. Bolden couldn’t play defense to save his life in the 1st half and Zags shot like 75%, we should have won that. We comfortably won quite a few games. We didn’t have the best offensive outing against TxTech but I mean they have the best defense in the country. We had no issues in transition until the tournaments and full (starter) health. No Jack, no runnin’

It’s fair to assume teams are more careful come tourney time but MSU was literally in the bottom 10 of 353 teams in turnovers. We couldn’t pick a pass the final 7 games. I don’t think everyone just woke up the day they played Duke and inherited a temporary splash of Chris Paul decision making.
Teams absolutely started being more careful with the ball. Texas Tech didn't let anyone who Tre Jones was gaurding bring the ball up the floor. Teams knew we were jumping passing lanes with our athletes and adjusted accordingly. I agree with your post Beer, but I'm just confused as what Jack White had to do with us "running". We really never got out and "ran". That's not who we were. We created turnovers at a high rate and were lethal in transition. We clawed back in the Gonzaga game because of offensive rebounding and because, like you said, they didn't shoot 80% in the second half.
 
I agree with Youngman. Our half court offense slowly deteriorated as the season went on, even though it was never really good. Jack, Cam, and to an extent, RJ, were the reasons, imo. We were excellent in our 2nd matchup with Virginia shooting the ball, but It’s hard for me to remember any game after that where we stretched the other team out defensively.
Maybe injuries slowed our ability for the freshmen to play together. Then tournament time, K went with who he trusted.

For the most part, our opponents knew what we were going to do, and when you factor in the competition gets tougher, then it just makes it more challenging for Duke.
I love Tre, but I think he only had 2 ballgames all season where he hit multiple 3’s.
 
We were never a great offensive half court team. We got a ton of points in transition and were one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the country.

Once teams figured out to let us shoot 3s and limit live ball turnovers at all costs we found ourselves in a lot of tough games.

Also, Iso and let our top 5 draft pick is exactly how we beat UVA the first time.

We weren’t a great half-court team early on because we couldn’t shoot, not because we didn’t know how to play together. Every team every game tries to care of the basketball. It’s not specific to playing Duke.

You’re right about the Virginia game, it was really ISO-heavy. This was different though because most possessions were designed isolation rather than stagnant “somebody do something!” isolation. Diakite was to guard Zion, Hunter was to guard RJ and Jerome(or Guy) on Cam. At the top of the key a lot of possessions you will see a multiple ball hand-off weave between RJ, Z and Cam. It repeats until the desired defensive switch occurs. A lot of times, Jerome got out on RJ. The athleticism gap is an exploit waiting to happen. Resulting from the behind perimeter weave, the pack-line defense is now expanded. This is why RJ went (roughly) 10/12 in the paint. If the packed D condensed too soon, Ques/Jav would set an up-screen. Duke also (in this game + others early oh) broke up the pack-line by running a dive set. Zion’s demand for double team down low pulls everyone else tighter inside to keep the middle clogged. Zion would then send it back to RJ on the perimeter. Virginia’s defense is now broken because RJ is driving into the paint and they are all out of position trying to reset the base defense. There’s no time for communication and RJ capitalizes. Of course, we also saw pure undesigned ISO with Zion but he’s the best player in college basketball and Deandre Hunter wasn’t powerful enough to compete, Diakite couldn’t stop him without fouling and Jack Salt is in the same athleticism category as Brian Scalabrine.

That game was actually a very well designed and executed gameplan.
 
Teams absolutely started being more careful with the ball. Texas Tech didn't let anyone who Tre Jones was gaurding bring the ball up the floor. Teams knew we were jumping passing lanes with our athletes and adjusted accordingly. I agree with your post Beer, but I'm just confused as what Jack White had to do with us "running". We really never got out and "ran". That's not who we were. We created turnovers at a high rate and were lethal in transition. We clawed back in the Gonzaga game because of offensive rebounding and because, like you said, they didn't shoot 80% in the second half.

Well... We forced TxTech to turn the ball over 20-25 times, lol so I’m not sure about that logic you mentioned with them.

I respect your opinion though bud and I know you respect mine. As much as I’d like to think Jack created a massive impact so silently, I could also be reading into it way too much. I think it’s hard to say for sure because there’s valid arguments on both sides. Injuries clog the plot so really we’re both just trying to figure out how the introduction and conclusion make sense. Just in our own way.

Read my post just above about the Virginia game. Jack White stood in the corner the whole game.... literally... stood in the corner... the whole game lol. That backs your argument of Jack’s value as minor. But then at second look, he’s communicating everything from the dang corner. It just makes me wonder if we suffered disappointment because we didn’t have our off-ball floor general.
 
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Well... We forced TxTech to turn the ball over 20-25 times, lol so I’m not sure about that logic you mentioned with them.

I respect your opinion though bud and I know you respect mine. As much as I’d like to think Jack created a massive impact so silently, I could also be reading into it way too much. I think it’s hard to say for sure because there’s valid arguments on both sides. Injuries clog the plot so really we’re both just trying to figure out how the introduction and conclusion make sense. Just in our own way.

Read my post just above about the Virginia game. Jack White stood in the corner the whole game.... literally... stood in the corner... the whole game lol. That backs your argument of Jack’s value as minor. But then at second look, he’s communicating everything from the dang corner. It just makes me wonder if we suffered disappointment because we didn’t have our off-ball floor general.
I was just referring to the Tech game because that's when I started noticing teams staying away from Tre as an on-ball defender. Teams knew that our defense was most definitely our best offense and started to adjust. I don't think Jack's value was minor at all. It was apparent that when he was the Jack at the beginning of the season we were almost unstoppable. I think a lot of that had to do with him hitting outside shots though. We really just needed one consistent outside shooter. His communication was also incredibly key, unfortunately he couldn't stay on the floor because he was starting to hurt more than help.
 
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No halfcourt offense is going to be great without shooters. I think a lot of teams and people, myself included, just assumed that the shooting would improve some. It got worse and made Duke much easier to guard. Teams no longer felt like they had to gamble and played us straight up. If we had had one or two consistent, reliable shooters we wouldn't be talking much about the porous offense....we'd be figuring out how to get number seven next spring.

I've said it a number of times and I'll repeat it again like a broken record....outside shooting was one of my main concerns coming into the season, but I never could have anticipated it being that bad. I thought we'd be mediocre at best. We didn't come close to that.
 
I like the idea of redshirting Jack if Bolden comes back. He needs to get his head right and rediscover his shot. We could use his leadership in 2 years.
 
No halfcourt offense is going to be great without shooters. I think a lot of teams and people, myself included, just assumed that the shooting would improve some. It got worse and made Duke much easier to guard. Teams no longer felt like they had to gamble and played us straight up. If we had had one or two consistent, reliable shooters we wouldn't be talking much about the porous offense....we'd be figuring out how to get number seven next spring.

I've said it a number of times and I'll repeat it again like a broken record....outside shooting was one of my main concerns coming into the season, but I never could have anticipated it being that bad. I thought we'd be mediocre at best. We didn't come close to that.

Good 3PT shooting isn’t mandatory for success. 2013 Louisville comes to mind as example. The only player left alone outside was Tre, not the whole team. Everyone has weaknesses offensively. Coaches develop gameplans to stop the strengths. That isn’t specifically new to this season or Duke. I know that you (and everyone else) knows that..... Why are we blaming basketball 101?

Majority theory is that we couldn’t shoot so we lost, do you recall a notable amount of open looks? I sure as heck don’t.

So here’s my question:
What did we do to CREATE a good shot selection? What did we do to CREATE open threes? If this defensive blueprint is so good that we were locked up and couldn’t create, why doesn’t the entire country adapt to it and stop everyone? Other teams might make more contested 3’s than us but that isn’t going to win games barring dumb luck. If there’s no creating against it, it is the best defense ever.
 
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