ADVERTISEMENT

Is DUKE's present team a legit 10 deep rotation?

jamsession3

Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
Dec 4, 2005
3,322
1,033
113
The last few threads have been extremely interesting and lively...full of spirit. So here is my question to the FAITHFUL. Can this team go 10 deep every game, including conference play?

Yes, I believe some will be a bit bothered, but for the sake of winning a NT, can it happen?
 
9. Sorry Blakes. Sometimes Schutt. So 8.5. Mitchell, Proctor and Young firmly in the rotation.
 
Last edited:
I say YES... I say we will see the heavy dose of Roach, Flip, Lively, Whitehead, Mitchell(5)... Proctor, Young, Grandison all will play significant minutes. And I am a strong believer that Blake's and Schutt will both see minutes EACH GAME... I think Jon has seen these past STAR STUDDED teams wear down, and sometime bog down during the games and the seasons, and will use the Florida State method, that EVERYONE WILL contribute. Hopefully so.
 
It’s a good thought but let’s look at it .
Roach/Proctor/Blake’s
Grandison/Proctor / Schutt/Blake’s
Whitehead/Grandison/Mitchell/Catchings
Flip/Mitchell
Lively/Young/Flip

I don’t think it’s out the realm but come conference play I’d look to no more then nine but ten is very possible.
 
I'd say it would be more likely, if it were not for the fact that we have had the exact same discussion every year for the past decade at least. I think Blakes and Schutt will get some time, but not consistently. And then there are injuries and illness.
 
Jon won a ship with a legit 8 man rotation with one backup guard!!! Yes, it's crazy to believe he didn't want a backup with him and Nolan as Combos, not PGs.
 
The question is how much of K's strategies will Jon adopt? And how much will he implement his own concepts?

K had his ways, and he built a legacy with them. Short rotations later in the season, love of his seniors, man to man defense, stall ball with a decent lead in the second half, short leashes for fringe players, neutral site preseason games to mimic tourney games, etc, etc, etc. And while many of us fans sometimes questioned his techniques, it's hard to argue with his success.

Now it's Jon's turn. what strategies will he bring? I for one would love to see us be a little deeper and develop those 2,3,4 year guys to be role players among the OAD's. But I guess mostly I would love to see Jon run the team his way. Let him build his own legacy.
 
Duke had 5 guards on the NT team with two being walk - ons. I wouldn't be surprise if the coaching staff asked Olek to play guard and he sent transfer papers in that day.
 
I do believe that Duke has 10 guys who can be solid at this level in college basketball. In my opinion, Jon will play a lot of guys through the season but then tighten it up toward the end to basically an eight-man rotation. Seems like most coaches do that, K just often went even tighter. I hope Jon uses more zone or a packed in defense as this team seems built well for that strategy. Just based on my personal experience with people, Jon will be influenced by the success of the Championship team that he was on. It will be interesting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jamsession3
The question is how much of K's strategies will Jon adopt? And how much will he implement his own concepts?

K had his ways, and he built a legacy with them. Short rotations later in the season, love of his seniors, man to man defense, stall ball with a decent lead in the second half, short leashes for fringe players, neutral site preseason games to mimic tourney games, etc, etc, etc. And while many of us fans sometimes questioned his techniques, it's hard to argue with his success.

Now it's Jon's turn. what strategies will he bring? I for one would love to see us be a little deeper and develop those 2,3,4 year guys to be role players among the OAD's. But I guess mostly I would love to see Jon run the team his way. Let him build his own legacy.
Great post! To the bold part, it seems the one things fans wanted K to do and now for Jon to do is develop those 2,3,4 year guys. K played his best players the most and it netted him 5 titles, 1200 wins, 100+ NCAA Tournament wins. His way worked and he won a lot because he played his BEST players a lot. It’s a high risk/high reward structure that worked for a high% of the time. Now yes, when one of those stars were injured and a role player wasn’t ready, it looked ugly. But when all of the players were healthy, it was a thing of beauty. I know fans want this (playing deeper rotations, developing deeper bench, etc) but doing that also comes with a lot of losing. Impatient fans will have to be patient while we lose 10-12 games a season, low seed in the NCAA Tournament and possibly bounced in the first few rounds because roles were still undefined heading into the NCAA Tournament or we had a tough path facing several tops seeds. This isn’t the 1980’s. There are more options besides college basketball for basketball players to get to the NBA. If players were sticking around for 4 years, then I would agree to develop those role players but it’s not. It’s the reason why FSU hasn’t been to a Final Four under Leonard Hamilton. He plays 11-12 guys all season and sometimes it looks great when it’s working, but when the pressure is on and no one knows who the GO TO player is, then what do you do? The only coach that won while playing a deeper bench was Roy at UNC because they played a fast break offense which required having fresh bodies. He only won 3 titles (2 of which are not legit) playing that way. He also was able to convince his 5 stars to stay 2-3 years longer than Duke’s OAD because his system would have absolutely collapsed with constant turnover.
The bottom line, K’s style worked to the tune of being the greatest modern college basketball coach of all time. If I had similar personnel, I would mimic the heck out of K’s style. Again, I don’t see any coaches playing 10-11 guys winning it all every year. That’s why you recruit the BEST and mold them into a cohesive team with well defined roles and bet on your BEST to beat the other teams BEST.
 
True but there is a difference between between playing 9 guys and playing 11 guys. It's really just a few tweaks. Also keeping our stars in when we're up 20 and 5 minutes to go could be disheartening to a bench guy who is working hard in practice and would like to see the court. We've been successful of course, and I'm not saying that those changes would get us titles. But it might get more guys to stay, which is what a lot of us want. It isn't solely about winning, at least not for me. The Paulus years were tough but our guys stuck around and built something, which was very satisfying to me. Also watching Langdon and Wojo mature. We never build anything any more we just reload. We are usually good but that is not as satisfying to me. I could care less about the NBA. I thought last year we had a decent balance. I think/hope we will see Jon transition a bit more towards the old model, with a few one and dones and transfers/role players. I just don't think annual number one recruiting classes is sustainable. K was able to recruit at a historic rate the last decade.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure about 10 deep, but i do think we will have really good depth this year. Also, i am firmly in the camp Lively and Flip will get the bulk of the minutes in the frontcourt and Schutt will have a role in the backcourt.
 
Agree Chris 100%. I've said it before, K had his ways, and I am not questioning his legacy and success. I always thought it was odd to play that tight rotation when we were up 24 midway thru the second half and then say we were "tired" in a tough loss later that week. Why not keep the starters fresh and get the 6-10 guys some burn so if/when we do need them due to foul trouble or injury or whatever reason they have some experience?

I do completely get the "play your best players" counter argument though.

Maybe I am just a homer who wants to see young players develop and to see top guys stay for a couple few years........
 
  • Like
Reactions: christophero
In regards to bench guys and minutes late in games...one thing that many times felt like a headscratcher was....up big 5 minutes or so left a timeout of some type of stoppage, time to make some swaps and the starters are still in at the start and as soon as the game starts back then you see the guys go to table....then that time gets eaten up then its only like a minute and some change left before they get in🤷🏽‍♂️
 
I don’t want to see Jon copy Hamilton’s amount of guys. I was also tired of hearing the “tired” argument K used many times.

Over the last few seasons, I felt K gave some of the oad kids too much leeway. A little pine time can work wonders.
I think Jon will let the players play upon situations. Ten deep I don’t think Duke will go but if Duke is up big I think Jon subs . K got to use to in the end relying on talent , IMO and you never saw to many of the OAD ride the pine . Always said Jalen Johnson was K’s breaking point to retirement.
 
I sure wish we had hung on to Coleman though. I think we lost 7 out of 11 guys. Something went on.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jamsession3
I sure wish we had hung on to Coleman though. I think we lost 7 out of 11 guys. Something went on.
Yeah but that all goes back to kids don’t want to wait their turn . Coleman wanted to start and he is where he’s at now . Sometimes it’s just better. I liked him and Brakesfield but really don’t miss either .
 
I don’t want to see Jon copy Hamilton’s amount of guys. I was also tired of hearing the “tired” argument K used many times.

Over the last few seasons, I felt K gave some of the oad kids too much leeway. A little pine time can work wonders.
But you’re not surprised the OAD had more leeway, right? The best players usually have more leeway. Sports isn’t socialism; it’s a meritocracy where, yeah, there is a pecking order based on abilities. But I still feel everyone contributes in other ways, but not just in getting more PT as every member of the team is valuable; just not equal.
I am excited to see Scheyer’s style! He wasn’t my first selection to replace K, but if K feels he’s the best to follow him, then I trust K. He’s certainly impressed me with his recruiting which makes for a smoother transition instead of a long rebuilding process. He certainly has all of the tools to be successful and if he is successful, he could possibly be at Duke for 40 years like K.
 
I was also tired of hearing the “tired” argument K used many times.

Over the last few seasons, I felt K gave some of the oad kids too much leeway. A little pine time can work wonders.
We did hear the "tired" excuse too much. In addition I also agree too much "leeway" IMO was granted the OAD's at times. I could elaborate but won't at this time.

The "tired" alibi was unfortunately one of Mike's signature lines like "they're old," describing an opponent.Don't get me wrong I love K to death, and he is the G.O.A.T, but had his faults like anyone.

I think this is one reason I an looking forward to Jon coaching so much! Will the approach CHANGE??? We already know he will hire coaches (Lucas) from "outside the family." K's best asst ever IMO, served in the 91-92 back to backyears, Mike Brey (from outside family). Hmmm.....That approach was abandoned, however.

OFC
 
Last edited:
K is the GOAT no doubt, but he definitely favored the one and done guys the last 6-7 years. That's okay, but it probably led to guys transferring and lack of high impact transfers. If it's clear to us the guys actually on the team must really see it. Nothing wrong with that; K earned the right to do what he wanted. But there were consequences; and you could argue it cost us a title or two as we were fielding very talented but very young teams. But we've still had success, so I don't want to sound entitled. But also a lot of near misses. We've been talented enough to win a few tournament games but when we come up against a team just as talented and more experienced late in the season we don't always rise to the moment. Getting that fringe one and done player back for a second year probably is the thing that would have pushed us over the top, but it is what it is. Getting Mark and Moore back got us to the FF.
 
Last edited:
But you’re not surprised the OAD had more leeway, right? The best players usually have more leeway. Sports isn’t socialism; it’s a meritocracy where, yeah, there is a pecking order based on abilities. But I still feel everyone contributes in other ways, but not just in getting more PT as every member of the team is valuable; just not equal.
I am excited to see Scheyer’s style! He wasn’t my first selection to replace K, but if K feels he’s the best to follow him, then I trust K. He’s certainly impressed me with his recruiting which makes for a smoother transition instead of a long rebuilding process. He certainly has all of the tools to be successful and if he is successful, he could possibly be at Duke for 40 years like K.
I said some of the oad's were given too much leeway. Not all. As far as Jon as the replacement? I think that was a no brainer. Not sure what you mean about him having all the tools to be successful. If by that you mean that he played and learned under K at Duke, then he definitely has an advantage, and I agree with you about him having the tools to be successful. Most any coach could win 70% of their games based off of talent, especially the way the game is today. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken s*#^.

The part that is unknown though, is how well he will be as the Head Coach. How well will he make adjustments, and how well can he motivate are a couple things we will soon find out.
 
When the K memories fade, will Duke still be a place elite guys want to go? That is the question. Not now but 3 years from now. Jon has done a great job so far, but the hard part is still to come. I am rooting for him, but to assume we will just zoom along may be wishful thinking. Fingers crossed. I agree recruiting is half the battle. If we can get to the sweet 16 and be a 2-3 seed, it will be a success considering all the turnover. If the stars align we could get back to the FF. But I'm not expecting it this year.
 
Last edited:
When the K memories fade, will Duke still be a place elite guys want to go? That is the question. Not now but 3 years from now. Jon has done a great job so far, but the hard part is still to come. I am rooting for him, but to assume we will just zoom along may be wishful thinking. Fingers crossed. I agree recruiting is half the battle. If we can get to the sweet 16 and be a 2-3 seed, it will be a success considering all the turnover. If the stars align we could get back to the FF. But I'm not expecting it this year.
I don’t know recruiting seems to be looking good for the next three years and I like Blake’s article when he speaks on Scheyer being a great coach and also bringing his own style on the court. I’m looking forward to Jon coaching as I didn’t really see any other way he wasn’t the next coach at Duke.
 
Last edited:
Ten is too many unless you have five reserves who are ordinary. An 8 man rotation is ideal in college. Nine is just fine. Ten is not realistic unless you have a young second team that is good but not elite
 
9 sounds right. I think Blakes and Schutt may alternate being the 9th guy. But 8 will play steady minutes. As much as I like Catchings he probably won't play unless we have an injury or illness.
 
Last edited:
9 sounds right. I think Blakes and Schutt may alternate being the 9th guy. But 8 will play steady minutes.
Lively
Whitehead
Flip
Mitchell
Young

Roach
Grandison
Proctor
Blakes
Schutt

I could see this group being among 10 man rotation EARLY. I would say it gets pared down 8-9 as year plays out. The surprise? I think Ryan Young will be so successful he will be tough to supplant. Schutt too perhaps.

OFC
 
These conversations are always funny to me since there is truly no ONE way to win a championship in college basketball. We’ve won it all with talented teams and not so talented teams, young and old, deep and just 8. If we win with 5, GREAT; if we win with 10, GREAT! If Scheyer can win at the same clip as K or the same way as K, why does it matter if the rotation is deep or not? In the title game, Kansas played 9 players; 6 played 21 or more minutes and 3 played 7 minutes or less. UNC only played 7 players total.
 
These conversations are always funny to me since there is truly no ONE way to win a championship in college basketball. We’ve won it all with talented teams and not so talented teams, young and old, deep and just 8. If we win with 5, GREAT; if we win with 10, GREAT! If Scheyer can win at the same clip as K or the same way as K, why does it matter if the rotation is deep or not? In the title game, Kansas played 9 players; 6 played 21 or more minutes and 3 played 7 minutes or less. UNC only played 7 players total.
Comon man it's the offseason what else are we going to debate? :)
 
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT