Hard not to look back and wonder:
https://247sports.com/college/duke/...basketball-had-healthy-Harry-Giles-119708123/
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https://247sports.com/college/duke/...basketball-had-healthy-Harry-Giles-119708123/
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Would Duke have cut the nets down withTHIS Giles???
- Thread starter hart2chesson
- Start date
Uhhhhhh yeah. From the time he was 15 years old, he was seen as a future Chris Webber, only better.
That Duke team really needed an athletic big in the middle, to protect against our poor perimeter defense, Giles fit the term “athletic big” to a tee.
Also...I think all duke fans should be rooting for Harry extra hard. The guy didn't have to give Duke anything, and after the season he had at Duke, probably shouldn't have played at all (He probably goes top 15 in the draft without playing, that's how good he was in High School.) But he worked his butt off to be able to get in good enough shape to give us 10 minutes a game, and it was obvious how fatigued he'd get after just a few minutes.
Harry is the man.
Harry is the man.
I really hope harry becomes an all star.
What a story that would be. He has been written off so much. OFC
Don’t know if we would of but I’m a big fan of his. I met him on campus and was the nicest guy and that smile was infectious in person too haha. Wish we would of seen his potential here
The two players in my lifetime as a Duke fan that I would say “what if” and the answer is “national title” are Giles and Irving. And before I get “but Irving played,” he did but when he came back, the chemistry was totally different. Had Kyrie played all year, that team may have gone undefeated.
With a healthy Giles, we had willing defender and rebounder who could also score. That defense was sorely missed.
Other notable injuries or absences:
Art Heyman (maybe Duke’s first title if he played)
Elton’s freshman season
Shav’s back and foot injuries throughout
Daniel Ewing’s broken pinky prior to UConn ‘04
With a healthy Giles, we had willing defender and rebounder who could also score. That defense was sorely missed.
Other notable injuries or absences:
Art Heyman (maybe Duke’s first title if he played)
Elton’s freshman season
Shav’s back and foot injuries throughout
Daniel Ewing’s broken pinky prior to UConn ‘04
Harry has been VERY SUPPORTIVE of Grayson on G's own start at Utah on twitter. The two worked well in limited time together last year. Grayson was probably our most adept passer to Harry on alley-oop dunks!
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I watched that 2010-2011 play in person against Kansas State. Had Kyrie stayed healthy, Duke would have been very scary and had a chance to run the table. They only lost 3 games in the regular season, nail biters at Virginia Tech, at Florida State, and at UNC. Those losses don't happen with a healthy Kyrie. The 2010-2011 team was perhaps one of the deepest teams Duke has ever had. Starters were Kyrie, Smith, Singler, MP1/Kelly (depending on the matchup), and MP2. Then off the bench MP1/Kelly, Dawkins, Curry, Thornton, and Hairston.
Plus the 2011 year was extremely weak, that was a terrible championship game, UConn-Butler. Butler didn’t have Hayward lol. VCU made the final four too. We could have gone undefeated with a healthy Kyrie all year.
Heck, we had no chemistry and should have finished off Arizona in that 1st half.
[QUOTE="dukehokie, post: 11278237, member: 712"
Other notable injuries or absences:
Art Heyman (maybe Duke’s first title if he played)
Elton’s freshman season
Shav’s back and foot injuries throughout
Daniel Ewing’s broken pinky prior to UConn ‘04[/QUOTE]
TRUE, and Bob Verga getting flu before
the loaded team with Lewis, Reidy, Marin and Vacendak played Kentucky in FF in late 60s. Bobby still played! He was a prolific scorer,but could only muster 4 pts as he struggled to play ailing. Still the Devils only lost 83-79. Duke would have squared off against eventual champ Texas Western had they got by the Wildcats.
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Other notable injuries or absences:
Art Heyman (maybe Duke’s first title if he played)
Elton’s freshman season
Shav’s back and foot injuries throughout
Daniel Ewing’s broken pinky prior to UConn ‘04[/QUOTE]
TRUE, and Bob Verga getting flu before
the loaded team with Lewis, Reidy, Marin and Vacendak played Kentucky in FF in late 60s. Bobby still played! He was a prolific scorer,but could only muster 4 pts as he struggled to play ailing. Still the Devils only lost 83-79. Duke would have squared off against eventual champ Texas Western had they got by the Wildcats.
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agree 100% jwill. Had Duke been undefeated Duke gets the #1 overall seed out East. Also, 2010-2011 season was very weak like you said. Duke should have finished off Arizona in the 1st half, but Derrick Williams had to make that contested 3 on Kelly SMH to cut Duke's lead to 7 at the half and with AZ's crowd right behind them out West. I hated that loss for the whole team, but more so for Smith and Singler. Had Duke repeated that year, #2 and #12 I have a feeling would both be hanging up in Cameron Indoor Stadium. Oh well, things happen that's the only constant in life.
my mistake with my earlier post, I had forgotten the 2010-2011 Duke team had lost at St. John's as well by 15 or 16 points during the regular season in a head scratcher game post Kyrie injury.
I wish he had been fully healthy, he was the cream of that class before his knee injuries.
That team would definitely have been more loaded than Duke Denver gets on Saturday nights.
The question may be though is who would have taken a backseat and not minded. I would love to think no one could have handled us, but a part of me says we only had one basketball to go around, and that was a lot of talent to share the ball.
Had this team not had any injuries at all to have dealt with, K would have had his hands full. Jackson was no slouch, and if his old man had problems with the current team, just think how it would have been with another star. Kennard probably wouldn't have had the great offensive year he had, maybe Grayson doesn't have as bad a year as he had. Bolden was in the starting lineup if I'm not mistaken before his injury.
A huge part of me thinks the injuries Duke dealt with made it easier for us to do a bunch of "what ifs." Awful lot of talent for K to juggle, and we know he doesn't spread minutes around.
That team would definitely have been more loaded than Duke Denver gets on Saturday nights.
The question may be though is who would have taken a backseat and not minded. I would love to think no one could have handled us, but a part of me says we only had one basketball to go around, and that was a lot of talent to share the ball.
Had this team not had any injuries at all to have dealt with, K would have had his hands full. Jackson was no slouch, and if his old man had problems with the current team, just think how it would have been with another star. Kennard probably wouldn't have had the great offensive year he had, maybe Grayson doesn't have as bad a year as he had. Bolden was in the starting lineup if I'm not mistaken before his injury.
A huge part of me thinks the injuries Duke dealt with made it easier for us to do a bunch of "what ifs." Awful lot of talent for K to juggle, and we know he doesn't spread minutes around.
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Mac, jmo but had Duke not dealt with injuries during the 2016-2017 season, my prediction is K starts: PG - Jackson (turn him into a more playmaking PG, had enough scoring around him with Allen, Tatum, and Kennard), SG - Allen (had already been proven during his 1st two seasons at duke, let him worry about just scoring), SF - Tatum (he would have been a matchup nightmare for all of the other college 3s and his defensive presence out on the perimeter would have been huge), PF - Giles, and C - Jefferson (proven defensive leader of the team, remember Jay Smooth couldn't beat Amile 1 on 1). Off the bench, Matt Jones - Best Perimeter defender on the roster (if Duke needed an additional defensive stopper out on the perimeter than he would have started in place of Jackson/Allen), Luke Kennard - Best offensive player off the bench (if Duke needed an additional perimeter threat/scorer than he would have started in place of Jackson), Marques Bolden - Sub for Giles/Jefferson.
This. With healthy players, it would have been much easier to parse minutes and divvy them out where they belonged. And the guys who played well should have still played well. Post players don’t typically take away from perimeter scorers, so IMO, Luke would have been fine. And maybe some of the pressure Grayson felt, would have been relieved, thus cutting back on the “incidents.”
Think about it this way, if the injuries don’t happen, Matt Jones wouldn’t have had to play point guard and Jayson wouldn’t have had to play the 4. Guys in their natural spots usually equates to on court success.
I was literally front row at the Butler game when he got hurt. Nobody would have guessed at the time. Dammit.
I tend to agree with your lineup, and you're right, on paper it's a nasty lineup. The thing that no one wants to mention is the players all being happy. Jackson wasn't happy, Bolden wasn't happy, and if Kennard would have come off the bench and say played 20 or so minutes a game, do you think he would have been happy? Chemistry trumps talent.
Talent is great, and believe me, this team had talent. I just think someone's own personal agenda would have gotten in the way.
This ain't Carolina, where after 5 minutes you raise your hand to come out of the game. K's demanding you be tougher, and you can't be tired.
Me too, he came back in the game, thought it was nothing more than a twisted ankle.
Correct. I think It would have helped with a more consistent substitution pattern as well. Matt and Luke in for Frank and Grayson. Bolden in for Harry and slide Amile over to the 4. Giles would have played 20ish min a game, much as he did in the World U19 games. Perfect complementary players around him. He doesn’t demand the ball he goes and gets it. That team perfectly healthy and without the hiccups throughout the preseason would have rolled. Everyone would have an understood role. We saw glimpses of that in the first preseason game before we got crushed with injuries to Frank, Ques, Tatum, and of course Giles. The continuity of the season was just gone from the gitgo.
I really like to think we could have grabbed the brass ring too! Harry putting up better numbers now, possessing a "KG" edge as one writer said earlier this week just makes you think so....
I really also like BullCity Gamer's lineup! I would have handed the ball over to Frank DAY ONE of the 16-17 seadon as well, and made him a PG.(He looked ok in Brooklyn at the 1).GA at the two, and a Tatum, Jefferson, Giles frontcourt combines a BLEND of scoring, rebounding, defense and leadership!(AJ as a senior was very vocal).
I guess my only concerns are was K bound and determined to start Matt Jones last year and play him 30 minutes (supplanting Frank)? You would have still had Frank's dad potentially causing turmoil. Also could we have kept Luke out of the starting five? IIRC, K said he killed it from the get-go in preseason and was on-fire. Would Luke have been happy not starting?
Nonetheless, had Harry been at the level he apparently is now, I still love our chances. This team doesnt go home the 1st weekend, and K gets us to the final four, possibly in a colossal final vs UNC.
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I really also like BullCity Gamer's lineup! I would have handed the ball over to Frank DAY ONE of the 16-17 seadon as well, and made him a PG.(He looked ok in Brooklyn at the 1).GA at the two, and a Tatum, Jefferson, Giles frontcourt combines a BLEND of scoring, rebounding, defense and leadership!(AJ as a senior was very vocal).
I guess my only concerns are was K bound and determined to start Matt Jones last year and play him 30 minutes (supplanting Frank)? You would have still had Frank's dad potentially causing turmoil. Also could we have kept Luke out of the starting five? IIRC, K said he killed it from the get-go in preseason and was on-fire. Would Luke have been happy not starting?
Nonetheless, had Harry been at the level he apparently is now, I still love our chances. This team doesnt go home the 1st weekend, and K gets us to the final four, possibly in a colossal final vs UNC.
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Here we go. I have an opinion that isn't what others are saying, so it's wrong to say. Talent doesn't guarantee success. You're young, naive, and only have the mental capacity to see "just" physical tools.
Never do you consider playing time, and how that may affect the team. I do. I find it hard to believe that K could have kept that many talented guys happy, it's basically that simple.
Does 2015 ring a bell? Sulaimon? We weren't even the most talented team that season. Heck, only the 92 and 01 teams were the most talented teams in the country.
We would not have gone undefeated... but for sure repeated.
With Giles healthy, I doubt we win the National. We may have gone further for sure but he would not have fixed all our issues.
Here's to a healthy season this season!
With Giles healthy, I doubt we win the National. We may have gone further for sure but he would not have fixed all our issues.
Here's to a healthy season this season!
I was stunned that your take was what it was...completely floored...
UNC won the title that year, and we beat them 2 outta 3 without ever having the real Harry Giles.
We may not have won it...but we would have DEFINITELY been the heavy favorites.
To me...our biggest issues were perimeter defense and PG play.
Harry would have cleaned up the perimeter defense, he was an athletic force near the rim who would of swatted away everything. I'll always love Amile, but he didn't have the ability to handle the back-line given our slow perimeter defenders. Obviously, Harry would not have fixed our PG woes though.
The extra 5 offensive rebounds a game that Harry could have grabbed (seriously, he could have been THAT active around the rim) would have made a world's difference.
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Like I said, you have to look at things a little deeper than how much talent we had. Unfortunately, you're not capable of seeing anything other than how talented each individual is. The hard part is getting the talent to mesh together as a, read carefully here, here goes, are you reading?, a TEAM.
How dare I base things off of 30 plus years of watching college basketball, most notably, K and Duke. At least 3 starters in tough ballgames will play 35+ minutes, maybe 4 starters. Too many alphas pal, I guarantee you someone would have been unhappy.
Let's just dream about the "what if" we had been healthy scenario. It's a lot easier to think about than a scenario that would possibly been more disappointing than the injuries were.
In the healthy-Giles-scenario, I think it is highly likely that Kennard starts ahead of Jackson. Allen/Kennard/Tatum/Giles/Jefferson, with Jackson and Jones getting major minutes off the bench.
Kennard was a second-team All-America and a lottery pick. Even before Giles had knee surgery just before the start of practice, Kennard was ticketed for big things.
Kennard was a second-team All-America and a lottery pick. Even before Giles had knee surgery just before the start of practice, Kennard was ticketed for big things.
I think it was obvious all year that Grayson and Luke shouldn’t have been on the floor together a lot, mainly due to their defense. Once Grayson came off the bench as instant offense, he excelled. Grayson was the only guy who had a good game in the SC debacle.
As I said, Harry would have cleaned up some of our perimeter defense issues. But I think our best lineup would have been Jackson, Kennard, Tatum, Jefferson, Giles.
Grayson is 6th man, Matt Jones gets a lot of time too. When Grayson or Matt come in, Tatum would have slid up to the 4 position.
As for the whole “chemistry” concern. Peak Harry Giles wouldn’t need the ball to be the best player on the floor. He would have dominated via the offensive glass and controlled our defense. Think Anthony Davis. Peak Harry Giles could fit in with anyone.
As I said, Harry would have cleaned up some of our perimeter defense issues. But I think our best lineup would have been Jackson, Kennard, Tatum, Jefferson, Giles.
Grayson is 6th man, Matt Jones gets a lot of time too. When Grayson or Matt come in, Tatum would have slid up to the 4 position.
As for the whole “chemistry” concern. Peak Harry Giles wouldn’t need the ball to be the best player on the floor. He would have dominated via the offensive glass and controlled our defense. Think Anthony Davis. Peak Harry Giles could fit in with anyone.
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Apparently wasn't obvious to the coaches.
Frank Jackson was never going to play more minutes than Allen or Kennard, with or without a healthy Giles.
You've followed Duke and wrote books about Duke, and you're very respected. What's your opinion on a healthy Giles with that Duke team?
You sure? They eventually started Jackson and brought Allen off the bench. That seemed to be in line with when we finally had a fully healthy (and in shape) team, in February. Which also happened to be when we went on a winning streak.
Everything that season goes back to the pre-season injuries and the whole Giles ordeal. If Tatum and Bolden don't get hurt in November, and if Giles is healthy all year, I think we would have seen many different starting lineups/lineup combos. Starting with....zero Chase Jeter minutes.
Frank was never a true Pg that some would like him to be . He wasn’t in HS and certainly wasn’t in college. He was a scorer plain and simple. If we had kept Thornton, i think the Pg concerns many had are alleviated. Having said that, the original question, by hart, if a healthy Giles was here all year- we would have been significantly and i mean significantly better. The ways Giles affects a game he can fit on pretty much every single team and any system. At his peak he ate offensive boards for breakfast and lunch and washed them down with put back slams and glaring stares through the opposing defense’s soul. He didn’t need the ball to be dominant which is why we would have been so much better.
Hmm. If Giles was all the way healthy, he's getting a bulk of the minutes. Plus we still have Bolden and Amile. On top of being able to play Tatum at the 4. I don't see how Jeter gets any minutes.
I'll be honest, I NEVER saw anything in Jeter that showed me he deserved minutes. He was nothing more than an emergency big for his 2 years. I wish he would have stuck it out at Duke though, could have been good by his 4th year.
He absolutely would not have played anything but mop up minutes if everyone is healthy, was more saying it tongue in cheek. Giles at 23-25 and Bolden with 10-12 would be what I’d expect if both were healthy.
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