White people don't have a hard time believing race can play a part in how people are treated by police. There is also a very logical reason for some of that to happen from time to time. Crime statistics. Plain and simple. When a subset (black males) that makes up ~6% of the population accounts for well over 50% of the crime in the country, there tends to be presumptions made. If someone is working on the south side of Chicago and stops a young black male, the police may be more cautious than if they pulled over a 60 year old father who lives in one of the suburbs.
The New Lounge
- Thread starter hpnole
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I wouldn’t deny it does in some cases. I’m sure there are racist police officers, 100 percent. Where people lose me is that the police are all somehow involved in systematic racism. It’s like folks forget that there are quite a few black Americans who wear the blue.
Don't stop there. In a 2018 study, they found that 52% of black people killed by the police were killed by non white police officers and that less than 1% of the killings involved an unarmed civilian.
There is also a study that shows that a cop is 18 times more likely to be killed by a black person than an unarmed black person is to be killed by a cop. 800,000 cops in America, almost 50mil black people. But, systemic racism and all.
Going even further as a society there are certainly racists in this country but the idea that America is a systemically racist country is ludricous to me.
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Me as well. I think people with this mindset are truly uneducated about racism and how rampant it runs outside of the United States.
I have to ask, does the existence of one problem mean the other problem doesn't exist?
I never said it was exclusively white cops killing unarmed Blacks. My argument for as far back as I can first remember anecdotally seeing it and then further studying the issue is that Blacks are treated differently than whites by law enforcement.
Being totally honest, I am emotionally spent by this particular conversation. I think that most of you guys (Topps, Ghost, SNU, Jimbo) seem pretty reasonable. I've noticed Ghost and SNU in particular interact with me much differently than some of the other folks on here, but I don't want to engage in name-calling and such.
I realize that my opinion means nothing to y'all because y'all don't personally know me. That's understandable.
I will make a request. Think of a professional, upstanding Black male you consider a friend. Share the David Ware video (preferably the full 17 minutes from stop to end) with him and ask his opinion. Ask him if he's ever been stopped by the police and if so, was was allowed so many opportunities (digging in his pockets, no DL, reaching for the glove box, no insurance, no tags, cursing at the officers, reaching for his cell phone, actually calling the person who would become his accomplice) before being touched by the officers. When discussing the case with your friend, please let them know that not only does Ware have a criminal record he assaulted the officer he killed 14 years ago during a DUI arrest. Finally, be sure your friend knows Ware somehow made it to jail safely and will stand trial (and hopefully get the death) for his actions.
Acknowledging that Blacks, in many cases, get treated differently than whites by police doesn't somehow make you any less of a supporter of police. It means you recognize a cultural problem with something you care about and want to see it improved.
First off... he distinctly said A factor, not THE factor.
Second... numbers, obviously.
But the issue that so many white people seem to have a hard time understanding is that it’s not about Black people getting shot. Those events are often the spark that ignites a fire, and these are the events that drive large media stories, and these are the events that prompt change... but it’s FAR more about the constant underlying issues and tensions in every day interactions between police forces and black communities. It’s about a young black man getting cops called on him in a situation where a young white man wouldn’t, it’s about a young black man getting put on the ground in a situation where a young white man wouldn’t, it’s about a black woman getting put in handcuffs when a white woman wouldn’t, it’s about a black man not been given the benefit of the doubt in a situation where a white man would, and on and on and on. It’s about the millions of examples of this day to day, low lying friction that we *don’t* hear about, but that every African-American has experienced. And it goes *deep* into the justice system, as evidenced by things like sentencing recommendation patterns and bail statistics and all of that.
At some point certain people just have to take a breath and listen to the people who have personal experiences and the people who know and understand the history and statistics, and accept that maybe there’s something going on that they don’t fully appreciate. Too many people resist doing that, and instead look to points with single sentence rebuttals and cherry picked statistics.
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The most important thing I’ve seen written on here. There is a reason you are emotionally spent by it, and I wish people would really understand that, and what it really means.
And honestly it really sucks how homogeneous this place is, and how homogeneous these conversations have become. Let’s be honest, these convos are 99% white male, And it sucks that you have to be this calm reasonable voice in the maelstrom to even hope to get your point across. I wish we had a forum population that looked more like the country population, but just about every black guy who has taken part in these discussions has left frustrated and exhausted.
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Couldn’t agree more! Maybe at some point people will start complying with police officers. Excellent point by you
Oh, that was a very lame attempt. I expect better
(And btw, you won't see me disagreeing about complying with police.)
So is the cultural problem with the black community or within the police department or both?
Ehhh... while I would need to discuss the idea of a "systematically racist country" a lot more to figure out what that would even mean, there is an awful lot of evidence of race playing a big role in a LOT of our systems.
There is plenty of evidence of race playing a inappropriate part in our financial system.
There is plenty of evidence of race playing a inappropriate part in our educational system.
There is plenty of evidence of race playing a inappropriate part in our justice system.
There is plenty of of evidence of race playing a inappropriate part in our housing system.
There is plenty of evidence of race playing an inappropriate part in our employment system.
So while it would take a LOT of work to convince me that ANY country is a "systemically racist country," I think it is pretty obvious that race has played an outsized role in the establishment in most systems in our country, and continues to play a larger role than any of us would want.
Been spending a lot of time overseas, have you?
This mofo won't even come visit New Jersey!So here is the thing.
There is racism everywhere. EVERYWHERE. Italians... yikes. Northern Italians think Southern Italians are practically another race, and they ALL hate Africans. Go to India, and you'll see how different the country is for a lighter skinned person of a certain caste compared to a dark skinned person. Travel to MANY countries in central America, and those people who are more obviously ethnically Native American often face a discrimination that others do not. Spend some time in Paris, and you SEE the tension between native, white Frenchmen and the African and Muslim immigrants. The Jews literally had to flee places like Russia and establish their own nation to keep from getting killed.
Racism is everywhere, it is somewhat natural, and it will never disappear.
Having said that, our country has three unique things that play an important part in any conversation you have about race.
First is that we have, fairly or not, a higher expectation for the United States. We like to think that we are more enlightened, more fair, more educated, more democratic... that we are the best, and a big part of that is how equal everyone is. And because of that, when we see ugly, ignorant racism it is rather jarring.
Second... every conversation you have about racism is probably with an American. Obviously you'll hear more about American racism when you discuss racism with Americans. That doesn't mean these sorts of discussions aren't held elsewhere, and it also means that most of the people you discuss it with see it from only an American point of view. That plays a big part in why you have the impression that Americans think we are the only country with race problems.
And finally... like it or not, the US has a VERY unique place in the history of the world and racism. We are the only nation to have this formalized, legalized system of large scale slavery in such recent history. We followed that up with a century of legally-established, codified racism in massive swathes of our nation, racism that impacted everything from what education a black person could receive to what loans they could get to what job they could get to where they were allowed to buy a house... and all of this WITHIN THE LIFETIME of Americans alive today. So not only has all of that had a massive impact on the lives of people alive today, but many of those people are STILL ALIVE today, along with all of their experiences and history. This is almost unique in world history.
So yeah... I have no idea what a "racist country" is, but the fact that discussions you have with Americans about race in America seem different than discussions you might have about racism in Japan or England... well, yeah, for a bunch of different reasons.
Maybe as a previous poster said if six percent of the population were not involved in over fifty percent of the crimes maybe cops both white and black would approach them differently.Or is this just another cherry picked statistic.
Listen. We don't see things the same here. But I respect your opinions whether we know each other or not. I get that these topics are frustrating, especially in text with people we don't know. Moving on from that, I will briefly respond to the other stuff.
It is easy to assume that it would have been different had the guy been black. We won't know. There may be anecdotal evidence that supports your theory. But the situation could have easily been different had the same guy tried that shit with other cops. Maybe those were two of the most non racist and patient cops in all of America. Or maybe they were a couple of bigots who treat white people different than they treat black people. IDK. It is impossible to have such a hypothetical discussion because we would only be assuming what we don't know. For instance, you suggesting that the situation would have been different had the guy been black is essentially assuming that those two officers were racist without anything to support the claim. So I don't care for this kind of comparison.
And yes, I can acknowledge that there are instances where cops treat black people differently in some cases. I can acknowledge that there is a problem with racist individuals in law enforcement. I just do not get behind the idea that it is to the point of the demonstrations today. But that's JMO. I think we only focus on how the police treat black people and not the other side. How the police are treated by black people. Not every time a person mouths off to the cops or is disrespectful in other ways, are they going to get mistreated by the cops. White or black. But it increases their chances. Right or wrong. There will always be room for improvement because nothing or no one is or every will be perfect. But there is room for society to improve as well. I am all for police reform. But society needs to reform too in order for it to work.
The biggest obstacle in the way of all sides coming together is the constant feed of misinformation. And you may disagree, but the media is the most guilty of it followed by politicians who play both sides of the same card. I think data does not support the narratives being pushed. I think they are being pushed in order to divide us. And I think more people who didn't used to see it that way do know.
Either way, these are just opinions.
I mean look at the statists...A minority of like 13%(somebody said 6%? of the population or something Idk, lead the US in murders....I mean in a bad neighborhood, doing bad shit, with priors, who doesn’t comply, does sketchy shit, resists, etc. How could you honestly really treat them (in those circumstances ) exactly the same as an ol Uncle Tom in the country cutting his grass drunk getting a dui lmao. I mean damn 😂 Everything gets highlighted in those circumstances and skewed by the media. Biggest problem with this country is the media. They can buy most people for a dollar. Tired of hearing about ***** race!!
You got all these people like Lebron saying you don’t know what it’s like “ I grew up in the ghetto” we didn’t get treated the same.....how in the hellllll can you get treated the exactly the SAME in bad neighborhoods???? 🤦♂️🤦♂️ .He even said we fear our life with cops ....Like if you’re not breaking the LAW!!! What you fearing ?
Lebron and Colin Kaepernick are two of the most ignorant, racist pieces of shit in our country.
If we're discussing discriminatory policing practices then that problem lies with the police. Only the perpetrator of an injustice has the ability to stop it.
I am not going to try to characterize anyone else’s life experiences.I can only go by own.I grew up extremely poor and lived in a project that was ninety percent or better black so I do not see All Blacks as the same.Like all human beings there are exceptional blacks average blacks and a small percentage of asshole blacks.The one constant for most Blacks as well as any other race is that they want to live happy productive lives.I have a firm belief that any human being success and happiness will come from their work ethic and desire to succeed.The Government is not your friend and depending on them has lead to the continued poverty and destruction of the Black middle class.Will try to get off my soapbox now
You didn't distinguish between the police or the black community. You simply said cultural problem.
In reality, the black community could make up tons of ground if they tried to fix things within, first and foremost. It all starts in the home. Over 70% of black babies are born out of wedlock and grow up without a stable father. Absent fathers one of the biggest issues in society today. And it doesn't only apply to the black community. The white community has seen that number steadily increase as well over the last few decades. It's not as high as the black community, but it's increasing enough to be alarmed. When you also have young black males who make up around 6 or 7 % of the population who are responsible for over 50% of the violent crime in the country, that's a huge problem.
So while the initial reaction is to ask what police can do better, I believe we need to address the issues within the black community concurrently. The police force in general has things they can be better at, as well. But it's not an either or situation. It needs to be both.
I've always been interested in this. When I ask white people to describe a racist action committed by a white person it almost always involves the use of one particular slur or something very stereotypical like burning a cross. Just about anything else usually gets some kind of a, "well that was pretty bad but I wouldn't necessarily say it was about race."
When it comes to calling a Black person racist, whites usually cast a much broader net. It seems with a lot of white folks, like the quoted post, a racist Black person can be just about anybody who acknowledges racism or speaks out against it.
Why does it seem racism is so narrowly defined for whites (by whites) but so broadly defined for others?
I always see racial numbers quoted by folks when talking about crime and violent crime, does anyone have a percentage of the murders committed in this country by people who grow up or live under the poverty line?
What about prison population? Does anyone know the percentage of American prisoners who grew up or lived under the poverty line prior to incarceration?
I remember looking at numbers like these when I was in college, but it's been years since I've researched them. I would like to see something reliable, but I really don't feel like doing the research.
@IFaZe do you have a meme that shows this information?
What about prison population? Does anyone know the percentage of American prisoners who grew up or lived under the poverty line prior to incarceration?
I remember looking at numbers like these when I was in college, but it's been years since I've researched them. I would like to see something reliable, but I really don't feel like doing the research.
@IFaZe do you have a meme that shows this information?
I don't know why you quoted my post. I haven't done what you outlined here.
Lebron James has done nothing but add fuel to the fires of unrest we've seen recently. He has millions and millions of followers and his voice matters. When he says ignorant shit like "black people are being hunted daily in the streets by police" or whatever (I paraphrased) it is beyond irresponsible. Not to mention, when verdicts handed down by a black AG in Kentucky about Breonna Taylor, Lebron doesn't buy it. Just posts more outrage. Jacob Blake. A criminal. Fought police. Had a weapon. Yet Lebron posts more outrage. He doesn't care about the rule of law. He doesn't care about any other than a black person got killed by the police and apparently in his eyes it's never acceptable. That's racist, ignorant nonsense.
I don't have them, but I would bet you a beer crime and poverty are highly correlated.
A few things, I would like to point out.
--There is a difference between a child being born out of wedlock and a child not having a reliable father in his or her life.
For at least the first 260 years Blacks were in America, marriage wasn't the institution it is for white people because a man could be sold away from his wide and children. The marital vows could be violated upon the demands of the slave owners. Again, just because some paperwork got signed doesn't mean that culture changes over night. And for perspective, before anyone tells me what was a long time ago, we haven't hit the equal time mark of Blacks in the U.S. living in freedom versus living in slavery.
-- I understand I'm not going to see eye-to-eye on this with many (most?) of the people on this board. That's cool.
@topps coach posted something about growing up poor and in the projects. If you got out and improved your lot in life, big ups. You deserve credit.
I bring up that post to just point out something that I can tell few here really understand, when they basically make excuses for profiling and treating people differently based on skin color.
Regardless of how many David Wares there are out there committing heinous crimes, you upstanding gentleman never have to worry about carrying the burden of their actions.
That's not the same thing for everyone, and it is damn frustrating. Outside of seeing the loss of life and seeing the killers of people like Tamir Rice, Philando Castille, Freddie Gray and so many others walk free without serving time for their actions, it is probably the most frustrating thing about all of these cases.
I quoted your post because you called LeBron and Kaepernick racist pieces of shit, with no explanation as to why. You responded by giving an explanation basically saying LeBron is racist because he speaks out against what he sees as racial injustice.
Yesterday (I think it was) you mocked the notion that Donald Trump was racist based on (among so many other examples) his "our country" and "go back home," comments to Americans of color.
Basically, you give a lot of leeway toward calling a white guy racist but you don't exercise the same standard of judgement toward a Black guy.
I think all these successful wealthy blacks “that came from the ghetto” (or not) need to come together and build these communities up they came from and change the narrative. Talk is cheap, be about it.
Any discussion of race in America has to go hand in hand with a discussion of poverty. There is a TON to unpack there.
But the number one historical "cause" of widespread poverty among the African American community as a whole isn't that black people are inherently more lazy than white people, or inherently don't take advantage of opportunities like white people, or whatever.
It is their race... or, more specifically, how they and their families before them were treated in the various systems of our country because of their race, and how this treatment impacted generations of Africans Americans in fundamental ways.
First off, cops should be approaching all innocent Americans in basically the same way, regardless of race. That's a hard ask, but the job is a hard job, maybe the hardest in the world. If you can't do that with some consistency, then you should be in a different job. I know that is hard, and that it feels counter intuitive, and I'm not disregarding the realities of the job (I'm the first to say that guys who look like me should be looked at more closely at airports than 90 year old grandmas) but come on... you cannot have cops treating innocent Americans differently from the start because of the color of their skin. Period. And we sure as hell shouldn't be in a world where every black person in the country has story after story of being treated badly by a cop off the bat bc of their skin color.
Second, I suspect you aren't actually looking at that statistic with the depth you need to look at it with. You are aware that black people are arrested for crimes more often than whites committing the same crimes, right? And that black people are found guilty of crimes more often than whites committing the same crimes... and that black people are more likely to be given jail time than white people convicted of the same crimes... and so on and so on?
The issue of crime in black communities is a huge one, with a million different facets. But in the end, we have to face the fact that race plays too large a role in how police interact with black Americans, and and we MUST do what we can to minimize it, for the benefit of ALL Americans... white Americans, black Americans... and indeed for the police themselves.
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Damn man, you REALLY are sticking with this, despite it being the most uphill race possible.
Playing victim and looking for a handout ain’t working.. It might help short term, but all you’re doing is crippling the younger generation into that mindset in the long term...
You mean LeBron's I Promise School?
You mean like Jalen Rose's Leadership Academy?
Serious question, do you know any successful Blacks?
But that's the thing. It's not an injustice. The case was investigated and one of the three officers got in trouble. He didn't get murder, but he got in trouble. That's exactly how justice works in our country. Mob justice isn't justice. Just because you don't like the outcome, doesn't mean it's an injustice. It doesn't matter how HE sees it. It's a matter of right and wrong as it pertains to the law. He's beyond ignorant.
On Trump, I don't think it has as much to do with race as it does with Trump telling people who don't like it here to leave if they're unhappy. So I fundamentally disagree on the Trump statement as you laid out.
He said those things because of WHO she is. Not because of what her race is. Is there a single doubt in your mind that he would say the same thing to an immigrant from Canada if they trashed American values and/or insulted him? I agree that those kind of attacks are childish and beneath his seat. But they are not racist comments, simply because his target happens to be "of color". He is consistently childish towards people of all races. He is also complementary of people of all races.
Claus Von Bulow, OJ Simpson and the four officers who beat Rodney King half to death were all acquitted by juries of their peers. Most people would say those were all injustices.
Again, though, you've got a pretty wide spectrum of what constitutes a racist for LeBron James, a Black man.
If Trump just told them, "Love it or leave it," he'd sound like what you describe. He could have said that, and I'd disagree with it but that is not a racist statement.
He told four American citizens of color (one of whom is a Black woman from Ohio) to go back to their own countries. That is racist. Straight up, white people young enough to be posting on this message board have never been told to go back to their own countries.
The fact that you're unwilling to say those comments are those of a racist show you are much stricter in how you define a white racist.
You are asking for a standard that is humanly impossible to achieve.U have acknowledged how tough it is to be a police officer.When every known statistic and personal experience tells you that you are entering a potentially live threatening situation.Any sane person person is going to take steps to protect themselves yet there are only a few egregious
U are asking for something that is humanly impossible to achieve.You cannot expect any human not to act in an aggressive way when their every experience backed up by every statistic tell them that they are possibly entering into a life threatening situation.You seem to have a monolithic view of Black people which does not acknowledge that they are like any other race which means they have some bad actors.You automatically assume that any fatal encounter is strictly the fault of the police
I don't know how ro answer this question. Same answer as before. He is consistent in his childish attacks. I don't think he cares what their race is.
