Tatum = Rivers?
- Thread starter TheDude1
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How so?
I know Austin had his detractors --- both outside and within the team --- but that kid wasn't fazed. If the rest of the 2012 team had played with half his swagger they would have been much better. Remember, there's one thing people always forget about that team....but they didn't lose a single road game in conference play. Think about that.
I know Austin had his detractors --- both outside and within the team --- but that kid wasn't fazed. If the rest of the 2012 team had played with half his swagger they would have been much better. Remember, there's one thing people always forget about that team....but they didn't lose a single road game in conference play. Think about that.
Just a moronic statement by Dude. Austin played like a freshman at times for sure but the kid was clutch as could be and like you said they didn't lose on the road, and that was with much more inferior talent. Austin gets blamed for a lot of things that simply weren't his fault.
Tatum is extremely talented but clearly playing like a freshman for long stretches at a time. He also whether you want to hear it is trying to fit into a team where he's not the go to guy (Austin was) and is coming off an injury for the first time in his career. Yes he's played 8-9 games but there are so many moving parts including your coach being out that in no way is it the same.
Man, sooooo much overreaction going on.
I always liked Austin. He had a big load to carry, and did pretty damn well with it. And even if I did have reservations about him, the dagger at the River's Dome cemented his legacy with me. One bad ass shot.
OFC
OFC
Because they're both black holes on Offense and are prone to take bad shots? If so, yes, the similarities are there. But Jayson is, IMO, a superior player, and I think he'll get smarter and stop forcing as much.
Austin played with as much heart and emotion as I have seen from a Duke player in a long time. Nothing fazed him and there was no question that man left everything out on the court. For that (and of course the shot) Austin is still one of my favorite OADs to come through Duke. He just happened to be on a very flawed team. I would take Austin on every years team if it was possible.
Yep same player that need to be nipped now before this season goes down the crapper. Jayson has shown flashes of being a great contributer but when he forces it oh man we're screwed. He tried to play hero ball and it resulted in huge lapses in O that we couldn't afford tonight. If we're going to play horrendous D our O had to outscore and you can't do that when one guy constantly forces it. Very disappointed in him tonight.
Wait wait wait... Why are folks getting so upset at that comparison? They are both guys who focus primarily on offense, both like high difficulty shots, and both can be a bit of a black hole on offense at times. Why is that so crazy a comparison? I don't think I said anything negative about them...
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Austin could hit threes, especially one very clutch three!
I said it on another thread...I think we view Rivers better in retrospect because of the shot. His team, and it's not all his fault, but some of it is, was one of my least favorite in recent memory because of the way they played. As far as that team not being talented...They had both plumlees as upperclassmen and Kelly, along with Dawkins, and Curry. They were thin in some ways, but no worse than this year's team.
He was a cancer to his team though. This years team is more talented Mason wasn't Mason yet and curry couldn't get along with Austin. I'm afraid Tatum is having the same impact
I didn't see Tatum play in High School..
But so far at Duke what I have seen from him has not been impressive...
I don't know about his attitude and connection to teammates off the court..but on the court he takes terrible shots...turns the ball over constantly...bogs down the ball movement...and does nothing defensively that's impressive...
Maybe because he's was out and injured..I don't know...but I haven't seen anything from him on the floor that makes me think of him as one of our best players...
I liked everything Frank Jackson did before Tatum got back..and have hardly seen him since..
My five Starters would be:
Frank
Grayson
Luke
Amile
Giles or Jeter
My subs would be Tatum,Matt,Giles or Jeter and Bolden
But so far at Duke what I have seen from him has not been impressive...
I don't know about his attitude and connection to teammates off the court..but on the court he takes terrible shots...turns the ball over constantly...bogs down the ball movement...and does nothing defensively that's impressive...
Maybe because he's was out and injured..I don't know...but I haven't seen anything from him on the floor that makes me think of him as one of our best players...
I liked everything Frank Jackson did before Tatum got back..and have hardly seen him since..
My five Starters would be:
Frank
Grayson
Luke
Amile
Giles or Jeter
My subs would be Tatum,Matt,Giles or Jeter and Bolden
I feel Tatum has been very good at times, but moreso in stretches. Last night was clearly a bad game for him, especially in the second half. Because that's our most recent memory of him I think some of us judge his entire body of work based of his second half. That's unfair.
There isn't a lot of evidence to support that Austin was a cancer. He was clearly the best player on that 2012 team, and without him Duke is lucky to be .500 in conference. I will admit, though, that sometimes he had a certain confidence about him that could be misconstrued. That team had some veterans, who IMO, were a little reluctant of Austin and his talents. Yes, he commanded the ball a lot. Yes, the offense was sometimes stagnant (especially when he got the ball). That team is thought of differently because they lost to Lehigh. And I get that....it was embarrassing, but sometimes I think all of us are guilty of building something up in our minds and drawing conclusions.
There isn't a lot of evidence to support that Austin was a cancer. He was clearly the best player on that 2012 team, and without him Duke is lucky to be .500 in conference. I will admit, though, that sometimes he had a certain confidence about him that could be misconstrued. That team had some veterans, who IMO, were a little reluctant of Austin and his talents. Yes, he commanded the ball a lot. Yes, the offense was sometimes stagnant (especially when he got the ball). That team is thought of differently because they lost to Lehigh. And I get that....it was embarrassing, but sometimes I think all of us are guilty of building something up in our minds and drawing conclusions.
Tatum to me looks like he could ....or should....be more of a Grant Hill influence on the team. If he could get some mentoring from GH it would be great for him personally and the team! Calling GH!....Per the attitude side - he is taking too long to realize that at this level there is greater depth in talent on his team and the opposition so he has to adjust. He's not there yet and that's his choice. Until he buys into that, and he may never do so, his play wont change from the way he played at HS/AAU
He wasn't a cancer on that team. That is one of the biggest myths going bc you want to blame it on someone and yes a lot of his confidence or cockiness is misinterpreted as negative in the locker room. Untrue. But like many things if you say it enough you believe it.
I think there's a huge learning curve for the majority of freshmen. We were just very fortunate in 2015 that we had 3 that learned and grew up really fast. Even those guys had some growing pains. It takes a while to going from being the man all throughout your playing days to being a piece of the puzzle. It also takes most veterans time to adjust to the freshmen. With all the injuries and distraction, I think we're about a month behind of where we should be. I disagree with all the hate towards Tatum. He shows flashes many times during each game that he has the most talent on the court. It's just going to take awhile, just like it took BI last year. At times, his defense looks pretty damn good. Give it time, this team still might get it all together and become special.
Could it be that Tatum might be more effective if not on a team with the potential of this years team. I can agree that Tatum desires and Rivers needed to be our alpha dog on offense. Rivers also had several less than ideal games for Duke but important to remember we had to rely on Rivers more than we do Tatum. Also important to remember that we saw Rivers play a whole season and have seen Tatum only 1/3 of a season. No telling what Tatum's legacy will be at Duke.
I'm hoping it's very similar to Justice - struggle early, come on nicely, win a national title, OAD, have a nice NBA career.
It is very hard for me to put Winslow and Tatum in the same conversation. Winslow would rip your heart out to win and I just do not see that from any of our freshman. We keep talking about Tatum but the biggest disappointment for me has been Bolden and it is not even close.
Poor Bolden just getting thrashed.... THR style. Fing embarrassing!!!!! Season is so young, MB is so young.
He looks to be struggling to adjust to the speed of the game. If your never in the right spot and always a half play behind its pretty tough to be tenacious..... He needs more to me at Duke at this point. If he does that I'm sure he'll be a monster, said I'll may be this season. Only takes one game, one play with some kids
Tatum will be your fav when the gel happens and we learn to play as a team. It's coming.
Cannot compare anyone to Justise, his intangibles are off the charts. Recall media members noting Justise's on court intensity as downright scary. Tatum & Bolden come across as playing in a country club scrimmage. Just the perception so far.
The light will go on for Tatum at some point, hope its before Feb.
what hurts Tatum IMO is that the game is faster, the players are stronger, and the teams are more structured.
When he played like this in high school people called him "smooth" because he made it look effortless.
When you play that way and struggle in college...people say you play effortless.
I think it will be a few years before Tatum learns how to help his team win and a lot of that is about playing to your strengths and not using an actual game to help develop what you think you need to get better at.
When he played like this in high school people called him "smooth" because he made it look effortless.
When you play that way and struggle in college...people say you play effortless.
I think it will be a few years before Tatum learns how to help his team win and a lot of that is about playing to your strengths and not using an actual game to help develop what you think you need to get better at.
Although Tatum is probably more talented, yes I think it is a fair comparison. Are they exactly the same person or player? No. Do they both play outside of the offense and take a high number of bad shots? Yes. The thing I respect about Luke's game is that he gets his points off of high percentage shots and doesn't try to force things very often. As K said, Tatum will probably lead a team in scoring in the NBA one day. But Duke will probably not have their best team if he is leading them in scoring.
Oh I don't think* they are even close to the same. I hope* they are. I loved how Justice played - right now I can barely stand watching Tatum. Tatum is going to be a very good pro player and you don't have to watch him very long to see that. But if you are going to play poorly on defense AND take horrible shots (and it wasn't just last night) then that's really going to hurt us. Justice could turn a game around on either end of the floor. Tatum has that same ability and we aren't seeing it.
Bolden must struggle with effort in practice too. In the BC game he dove on the floor for a loose ball and the bench (coaches especially) acted like he just won the game for us when we were up by around 20 points. To me, that was sign that they don't see it as much as they would like. I don't want this to sound like I'm being hard on him. Right now these two very physically mature young men have a lot of mental maturing to do.
Tatum is used to getting 20 shots per night, I'm sure he's been getting that on every team he's ever been associated with. He will not get 20 shots per game with this team that much is crystal clear. We need to give him more time to grow as a player it is not an easy adjustment.
I mentioned this last night but during the first half we played excellent team offense. We drove the ball when it was there and when it wasn't the driver drew so much attention that someone was open for an easy look. In the second half they ratcheted up the pressure, they received a few fortunate calls, they got the home crowd going nuts and put a ton of pressure on us. It is easy to slip back into your natural ways in that type of environment. I have plenty of faith that Tatum will figure it out. Nothing but his ego can stand in his way.
I can't say that for all our guys, I'm sure not bolden or Giles will be healthy enough to figure it out by year's end but I hope they do.
I mentioned this last night but during the first half we played excellent team offense. We drove the ball when it was there and when it wasn't the driver drew so much attention that someone was open for an easy look. In the second half they ratcheted up the pressure, they received a few fortunate calls, they got the home crowd going nuts and put a ton of pressure on us. It is easy to slip back into your natural ways in that type of environment. I have plenty of faith that Tatum will figure it out. Nothing but his ego can stand in his way.
I can't say that for all our guys, I'm sure not bolden or Giles will be healthy enough to figure it out by year's end but I hope they do.
Excuses excuses
He needs to shows some energy and at least a tad bit of toughness...he is flat out soft and IMO lazy as hell
Prove me wrong Bolden...but I just doubt I will be proved wrong...hope so though
I hope you're right! He's shown what he's capable of in the flow of the O and it was great! When do you think we'll start to gel?
Has anyone ever considered that the 2015 team caused us to have great expectations of our current team and each teams achievements will have different results. I don't recall any players on the team ever saying they would be the odds on favorite team to win the NC. The ones who said that are the experts and the fans.
That 2015 team at least showed effort and heart even in losses....we have some players now that I question their desire....but it may just be me
Sensationalizing the past again. That team had a few games right around this time of year where we questioned the same thing we are now. Miami at home rings a bell. Justise had to have a serious heart to heart with K to stop caring just about his draft stock and buy in. The ending makes you forget the struggles and how great the journey was.
No guarantees that this team ever gets there but that team has their rough patches too.
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