For me, this is confirms Wojo's ability -- not the other way around I think we are in the mutual agreement society...
Coach K: Duke's Best Defenders
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For me, this is confirms Wojo's ability -- not the other way around I think we are in the mutual agreement society...
He went from being one of the best defenders in the college game as a freshman to already being one of the better defenders at the professional level as a rookie. Truly a special special talent.
With regard to Winslow, I probably would agree that he was the most naturally gifted defensive player as a freshmen that I've seen in a Duke uniform in 20+ years. Really never seen a freshmen with that combination of athleticism, strength (guy was built better than most srs.), length, awareness, timing, energy, etc. Incredibly versatile at defending virtually any type of 1-4, including PGs on switches and PFs on post-ups. With that said, not sure he was the overall team defender that any of our national player of the year type players were as jrs. and srs. -- which is hardly unexpected -- but makes it impossible to compare him to some of those guys. If Winslow had stayed a few years, I do think he'd have had a good chance to have earned the mantle of the best Duke defender ever.
Battier was awfully good even as a freshman.
Wojo's lack of an NBA career has nothing to do with his college achievements, nor do his limits in even the college game, most memorably in his last ever game, mean he was anything less than the best defender in the country in '98.
I'm drawing a blank on Brickey's D. David Henderson should be mentioned, too. Justise definitely deserves mention, but I take with a grain of salt the speculation that he was the best freshman defender ever at Duke. Just head-to-head, I'll take Shane, and circumstances were so unique beyond that.
Wojo's lack of an NBA career has nothing to do with his college achievements, nor do his limits in even the college game, most memorably in his last ever game, mean he was anything less than the best defender in the country in '98.
I'm drawing a blank on Brickey's D. David Henderson should be mentioned, too. Justise definitely deserves mention, but I take with a grain of salt the speculation that he was the best freshman defender ever at Duke. Just head-to-head, I'll take Shane, and circumstances were so unique beyond that.
Good thing you read my whole post.
I even said no one is down playing Shane, but at the time of my post Shane was mentioned behind others (maybe they weren't necessarily in order) and I personally think among collwge bball fans, some of his accomplishments on D can be lost because he was on 2 Duke teams that could be ranked in the top 5 of all time Duke teams in terms of talent and individual accomplishments. Hell that 2001 season, a bigger deal was made about the record breaking amount of threes Duke made than Battier winning his THIRD consecutive NDPOY!
So please don't get offended and act like I'm jumping on anyone for not realizing what we had in Battier, just re-emphasizing how amazing of a player he was at Duke.
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I think you and I are closer to agreeing than not. If someone watches Winslow they say "Wow! That guy is a beast! There is none better!!" People tend to forget OR cannot possibly believe that there was someone better then the last guy they just saw.
How can Battier be the better defender, I never saw him? I'm not saying that you said that, but is the general theme.
And if you are correct about the bigger deal of the number of threes then your recall is better than mine.
I can easily get too torqued up about stuff like this.
Yeah I won't speak for anyone, but that 2001 team was just so talented and had a bunch of storylines. You had one of Duke's greatest point guards ever, a swingman in Mike Dunleavy that really brought national attention to Duke's propensity to recruit and develop 6'8 versatile wing players (I know we had Grant and McLeod, but people nationally didn't take notice until Dick Vitale's constant mention of Dunleavy and his versatility), you had the Boozer injury overshadow a lot of things, the Duhon-Williams can they coexist stories, the "Nate James loses his starting spot, will he be mad" angle, who's gonna leave for the draft, "how many threes can this team possibly hit" and all of this on top of Duke winning game after game. Battier's defense was almost an afterthought simply because it wasn't new what he did. It didn't grab headlines and it wasn't a part of the daily news. And he was so likable that people tried to hate him, but just couldn't. Now he did get some SI covers and such, but once the season was in full swing some of the other things took precedent.
Even during some telecasts announcers like Brent Musberger, Jim Nantz and Mike Patrick called games as if they were surprised by what Shane was doing. I will say this, as annoying as they can be, Billy Packer and Dick Vitale pretty much did their part to let the nation know how incredible Shane was, especially on defense, but their credibility is overshadowed by their personas so people were definitely taking a "let me see for myself" stance.
Battier honestly didn't seem to get much national respect until the article came out in '08 or '09 about the Rockets trading for him using the Moneyball, saber metrics tactic. At that point the world knew what we as Duke fans already knew about Shane Battier.
So my belabored point was not to say no one cares about Shane. It was more of an education for younger fans or fans that only remember the past few years because the mid-2000's weren't necessarily the typical postseason Duke we know and love and sometimes the contributions of individuals are lost.
Sorry for the hijack.
Sky I met Billy King the other week. I work with his brother and unfortunately their mother passed away and I went to the funeral. It was so many people there I had to stand in the back by the doors. As I was standing there and this tall guy came in and stood next to me. I turned and looked at him and it was Danny Ferry. I talked to him after the funeral for a few. He said he reads DI often. Just thought I would share. John. (Billy's brother) said Coach K was supposed to be there also but he was on a recruiting trip.
Sorry you did not get the point of my comment. Nothing I said detracts from his best year. I agree that he did work his butt off to become defensive player of the year. However, I believe that he was several notches below Battier, Billy King, and several others because of his lack of speed, as a result of which he had no chance to play in the League. The thread is about ranking Duke's best defensive players, and WOJO is a ways down the list for me.
When did this turn into such a heated arguement?
Again, Wojo is my all time favorite blue devil. His passion and effort defensively guided Duke. At the same time...being a gritty PG on a very good and highly visible Duke team certainly helped his reputation....similar to the Landlord IMO.
Both were very good but had weaknesses and there were likely better overall defenders in the country those years who weren't recognized.
Winslow and Battier changed games without always putting up traditional stats like steals and blocks in big numbers. Battier was the best...Justice was amazing as a freshman and even Duke players were talking about his place all-time during the season.
Again, Wojo is my all time favorite blue devil. His passion and effort defensively guided Duke. At the same time...being a gritty PG on a very good and highly visible Duke team certainly helped his reputation....similar to the Landlord IMO.
Both were very good but had weaknesses and there were likely better overall defenders in the country those years who weren't recognized.
Winslow and Battier changed games without always putting up traditional stats like steals and blocks in big numbers. Battier was the best...Justice was amazing as a freshman and even Duke players were talking about his place all-time during the season.
Unfortunately we are in an era where every "best college player/defender/scorer" argument should be seperated on 2 different sides, pre and post 1-and done.
Good story.
Also, to highlight this point....people don't believe some of us when we tell you this, but you'd be surprised who is reading these boards.
I've always thought that. Maybe even hof coach roy williams drops by. I remember several years ago when I made fun of his ugly ties he said something about not caring about what people thought of his ugly ties. This was about the time of the tragic NIT season. OFC
A couple of others - Lance Thomas and Antonio Lang (I have Thomas ahead of Lang. But, Lang was very good, from my recollection).
I also would add Chris Duhon to the mix among great defensive guards.
I also would add Chris Duhon to the mix among great defensive guards.
Actually JWill -- I was thinking the same thing as I was starting to flare-up on my micro-rant.
There will be certain records that are just not going to be broken anytime soon.
Hurley's all-time assist record
Laettner's all-time scoring record for NCAA tourney play
Why? No one stays that long. AND for Laettner, he went to the final four for four years. Over 400 points in 23 games.
So now, someone is going to say that we need to put 1 year records along with career records.
I see a lot of asterisks in the future....feels a little sad.
Thanks for mentioning Tony and Lance. Both did what was ask of them and both got their shot in the NBA. With Coach K and Duke players don't need to be te center of attention to play NBA ball. OFC
And I believe Antonio is now coaching overseas.
The number of coaches that come out of Duke is staggering.
I feel like a remember seeing that his son started playing college basketball recently, though he wasn't a "Duke level" recruit. Where is he playing?
I believe a Brickey was hurt against Seton Hall not Michigan we would have been playing in the final for that to happen.
I always liked Thomas Hill and Brian Davis for defense. That '92 team also had Hurley, Hill, and Laettner so maybe that is why we don't recognize them. That team was fun to watch. I believe they were #1 the whole year.
I always liked Thomas Hill and Brian Davis for defense. That '92 team also had Hurley, Hill, and Laettner so maybe that is why we don't recognize them. That team was fun to watch. I believe they were #1 the whole year.
Always thought Hurley"s defense was overshadowed by his offense.Somewhat off topic but my son was at the Duke basketball camp, Bobby was guest speaker.There was a pickup game where Wojo was guarding him and Bobby blew by him any time he wanted to.God I loved watching him play
Damn that car accident. Bobby would have stepped into an OK situation in Sacramento and really thrived in an era where point guards were like quarterbacks in the NFL.
Thanks to guys like Mark Jackson, Mark Price, Magic and John Stockton, a point guard was viewed as THE guy on a good team. Bobby would have been valued, utilized and brought up to play the game the way he was capable.
But to your point, he was a very good defender. The value of staying at a school for 3+ years. We always say "you can learn to shoot in the NBA", but some nuances of the game are learned and honed only at a lower level. I don't want to have to learn defense on the fly against Jordan or Bird or Drexler or Wilkins.
Yes on the SH correction.
If we made an all-time Duke role player team... Brian Davis would probably be DQed for being the star of it.
It's a head scratcher to me how Thomas Hill is so overlooked in Duke history, period, for anything other than his OMG pose after THE SHOT. He was a 3-time 3rd team All-ACC player. I suppose 3rd team always gets short shrift attention-wise, and when you are always playing w/ at least 2 of Laet, Bobby, and Grant, you're a good teammate to concede the limelight. Speaking of his OMG moment, I only just recently realized/remembered that he was the 5th player on the floor for THE SHOT. We all know Grant threw the pass; that tall guy w/ the pretty haircut hit THE SHOT; Bobby was on the perimeter; THE SHOT's vibrations knocked Antonio Lang on his back in the paint... but I couldn't recall who the 5th guy was, and the OMG pic shows T Hill standing in the bench area, so I'd forgotten that he was actually on the court for the final 2.1.
Yeah, Brickey was hurt against the Hall. T Hill, Brain Davis, and Tony Lang are all way underappreciated. Can still remember hearing his teammates yell "get up T!" when he would grab a rebound in traffic. The defense, offense, and depth of the 91, 92 teams was amazing.
Kind of weird how they had such a hard time stopping Kentucky for scoring at times during that regional final.
Kind of weird how they had such a hard time stopping Kentucky for scoring at times during that regional final.
They matched us in heart down to the very last beat. There's a great chance you'll be right there at the end regardless of talent when you do that.
I remember Wojo out there just agitating and irritating the man he was guarding. I remember unc fans just hating on the guy because he was such a pest. Just think if he were playing today how much he would be agitating that thr bunch. OFC
Glad Sky got the Billy King ball rollin!! Remember when he locked up Temple mega-scorer Mark Macon in The Big Dance!!??
I wish I could have watched Tommy play his 4 years, seems like the type of PG I would love.
I don't have a problem with people saying "x player is better than z" and even debating, it the point is also true that we need to remember that both are great and we were lucky to have such greatness.
Go Duke!
I don't have a problem with people saying "x player is better than z" and even debating, it the point is also true that we need to remember that both are great and we were lucky to have such greatness.
Go Duke!
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