If you have lost passion for Duke basketball.....

[GhostOf301]

This year's team just isn't that talented. It's not that they don't want to win or that they aren't trying. Simple reality is, they're not that talented. So this isn't about this year's team more than it is about the direction the program has gone since adapting to the current environment.

Personally, I think the program sold out. As a 30+ year Duke fan, I always valued teams that had experience and growth. Obviously you want the best talent available, but at what cost? I won't lie, it has taken a toll on my passion for the game. That, combined with covid has really made me give so much less of a **** and that depresses me. Haha.

Anyways, I hope we get back to the point where players earn their scholarships through hard work and abilities rather than their rankings coming out of high school. The NBA drafts based on potential, now the college game has adopted that method as opposed to recruiting based on building a team over a 2-3 year span. Particularly us and Kentucky. And you see where that has gotten both programs.

 

[ioliva]

This year's team just isn't that talented. It's not that they don't want to win or that they aren't trying. Simple reality is, they're not that talented. So this isn't about this year's team more than it is about the direction the program has gone since adapting to the current environment.

we’re not talented? How could you say that knowing how much talent graces dukes bench ? The problem is 100% the staff not developing the returning players year after year and relying on college basketball god talent to win games instead of coaching up a squad. We are losing games to teams that wish they could’ve recruited our guys out of high school . Talents not the issue, it’s the entire program and that starts with the staff. How can Jim larranaga win with such a beat up team but coach k can’t get his healthy highly recruited team to win?

 

[christophero]

I'm not even that mad when we lose anymore. This season is kind of over for us barring a drastic turnaround. We do have a model that has been reliant on 2 or 3 dominant freshman every year, and this year we don't really have any. We have good young players who are a year or two away from being really good players, Johnson included. Which is fine as long as most of them return.

 

[dukiejay]

We’re talented, but nowhere near as talented as the previous six seasons. This group doesn’t have the kinds of players those teams had.

If, and this is a big if, we can get the guys who should come back, back....well, next season would set up nicely on paper with some older, more polished players.

 

[denverexpat]

we’re not talented? How could you say that knowing how much talent graces dukes bench ? The problem is 100% the staff not developing the returning players year after year and relying on college basketball god talent to win games instead of coaching up a squad. We are losing games to teams that wish they could’ve recruited our guys out of high school . Talents not the issue, it’s the entire program and that starts with the staff. How can Jim larranaga win with such a beat up team but coach k can’t get his healthy highly recruited team to win?

That last sentence is the one that really hurts.

 

[germantondevil]

I'm not even that mad when we lose anymore. This season is kind of over for us barring a drastic turnaround. We do have a model that has been reliant on 2 or 3 dominant freshman every year, and this year we don't really have any. We have good young players who are a year or two away from being really good players, Johnson included. Which is fine as long as most of them return.

Agree but that’s the problem they will not return. You know Johnson and Hurt are gone and Roach was OAD when we recruited him so he will probably jump ship no matter what

 

[Mac9192]

This isn’t a very talented team, no true leader out there. But, IMO, K isn’t near as sharp as he used to be either. He might be one of the best ever, but that doesn’t mean he still is.

The answer to the thread question, is the program (K) sold out to the state of the game today.

 

[GhostOf301]

we’re not talented? How could you say that knowing how much talent graces dukes bench ? The problem is 100% the staff not developing the returning players year after year and relying on college basketball god talent to win games instead of coaching up a squad. We are losing games to teams that wish they could’ve recruited our guys out of high school . Talents not the issue, it’s the entire program and that starts with the staff. How can Jim larranaga win with such a beat up team but coach k can’t get his healthy highly recruited team to win?

The talent this team possess is complimentary talent. Not the kind of talent that takes over games. This is due to the direction the program took. Not every class is the same, we've been spoiled by the Bagleys and Carters, the Zions and Barretts of the world and to a smaller degree, Carey. This year there are great players, but no dominant ones like the ones mentioned above and not. We still have not won anything of note or even reached the Final Four with the current strategy. I am over it.

 

[ioliva]

The talent this team possess is complimentary talent. Not the kind of talent that takes over games. This is due to the direction the program took. Not every class is the same, we've been spoiled by the Bagleys and Carters, the Zions and Barretts of the world and to a smaller degree, Carey. This year there are great players, but no dominant ones like the ones mentioned above and not. We still have not won anything of note or even reached the Final Four with the current strategy. I am over it.

so Gonzaga gets better talent than duke? Oklahoma? Texas? Illinois? Drake? Sure, we don’t have a Tatum, zion or bagley like super star. But if that’s what we need to be a decent squad then it’s obvious the coaches aren’t developing what they have. Year after year duke basically picks out who they want. This is the team they decided to play with this season, no excuses.

The one and done strategy is fine but you need to develop players that can contribute. That’s why we won in 2015 and why Zions team lost.

 

[durhamgolfer]

So in 2015, we won a Natty. Since then, we went to two elite eights and won the ACC championship twice and last year were trending upward before Covid-19 turned the world upside down. We would not have won in 2015, had 4 year player Quinn Cook not finally delivered on his potential and had Amile and Marshall not stuck around. Two years ago. we had two seniors, DeLaurier and White. Bolden played for the program for three years. We have been overly reliant on freshman but there have also been four year players we have been able to watch. This year will be the first year in over 20 years that we have not made the tournament. I imagine a lot of programs would like to change places with ours. Doing well in a pandemic shortened year with games cancelled and no summer program was always going to be a heavy lift but if approached with that recognition there have been fun things about this team. I love watching Steward and seeing Williams start to grow has been great. And, even with his limitations, it is hard not to enjoy Goldwire. He was a three star recruited to run the practice team and has worked hard and played himself into an integral member of the team.

 

[germantondevil]

The talent this team possess is complimentary talent. Not the kind of talent that takes over games. This is due to the direction the program took. Not every class is the same, we've been spoiled by the Bagleys and Carters, the Zions and Barretts of the world and to a smaller degree, Carey. This year there are great players, but no dominant ones like the ones mentioned above and not. We still have not won anything of note or even reached the Final Four with the current strategy. I am over it.

What is sad is I don’t even remember most of the OADs that has come through Duke!! These guys aren’t truly sold out to Duke when they show up on campus. They are sold out to themselves. Most of them could give a rats ass about those retired jerseys and banners hanging in the rafters. All they care about is draft status and their first Bentley. Just like the rest of the country,, history has been erased by the generations coming up now. World history and CIS history!

 

[500HP_Devil]

I’m not sure what the current strategy is but this is most certainly a down year. I still think Jay Bills is spot on....

 

[durhamgolfer]

What is sad is I don’t even remember most of the OADs that has come through Duke!! These guys aren’t truly sold out to Duke when they show up on campus. They are sold out to themselves. Most of them could give a rats ass about those retired jerseys and banners hanging in the rafters. All they care about is draft status and their first Bentley. Just like the rest of the country,, history has been erased by the generations coming up now. World history and CIS history!

Everyone goes to college to further themselves for their next career and they make decisions accordingly. How many premeds stay away from liberal arts courses because they knew they won't do as well as in the sciences and need to keep their grades up for medical school. Similarly how many liberal arts majors don't take hard maths and sciences so they keep their grades up to get into law school or phd programs. We don't criticize them or say that they aren't sold on their college. Thanks to the NBA, kids who would not otherwise go to college pretty much have to. Should we really criticize them if their concern is their draft status? That effects their career and yes, they want to maximize their potential salaries, just like the majority of Americans. Why is there something wrong with that?
I think it is doing a disservice to these kids to say they don't care about retired jerseys and banners. Anyone remember Wendell Carter crying when they lost to Kansas in the elite 8. Zion Williamson wanted to be part of something so badly that he came back from an injured knee to play, despite the fact that every pundit thought he would be better served by sitting out the remainder of the games. And, he loved Duke so much that he wanted to comeback from his sophomore year. Same with Carter. History cannot be erased. Those banners will be there no matter what the future brings. Just that the present is not the same as the past.

 

[GhostOf301]

so Gonzaga gets better talent than duke?

Let's just address this. How did you get that out of what I said?

So in 2015, we won a Natty. Since then, we went to two elite eights and won the ACC championship twice and last year were trending upward before Covid-19 turned the world upside down. We would not have won in 2015, had 4 year player Quinn Cook not finally delivered on his potential and had Amile and Marshall not stuck around. Two years ago. we had two seniors, DeLaurier and White. Bolden played for the program for three years. We have been overly reliant on freshman but there have also been four year players we have been able to watch. This year will be the first year in over 20 years that we have not made the tournament. I imagine a lot of programs would like to change places with ours. Doing well in a pandemic shortened year with games cancelled and no summer program was always going to be a heavy lift but if approached with that recognition there have been fun things about this team. I love watching Steward and seeing Williams start to grow has been great. And, even with his limitations, it is hard not to enjoy Goldwire. He was a three star recruited to run the practice team and has worked hard and played himself into an integral member of the team.

There are a lot of contextual facts in this post. I think I agree with the overall point, but not positive that I know what the overall point is. But I think I agree.

I’m not sure what the current strategy is but this is most certainly a down year. I still think Jay Bills is spot on....

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I definitely acknowledged that this year lacked the elite talent from the previous years. But that is not new. What's new is the fact that we miss out on the 2-4 year 3/4 star players that it takes to build a successful team with the combination of a couple of top tier players.

As far as what Jay Bilas said, Duke had more success and more consistency prior to the OAD bullshit. Woopty fvckinh do. Remember when Duke won 5 consecutive ACC tournaments? Remember when Duke won their 4th and 5th national championships? That was the Duke standard. We are lying to ourselves when we try to defend our current state.

 

[christophero]

If most of our guys return, then we should be good. But if guys like Williams and Steward leave, then I think the model is broken and we'll run into the same freshman led problems next year. But we should definitely be better. If we only lose Hurt and JJ we should be contenders again. We just don't have any leaders right now. Moore and Hurt are just sophomores; and Goldwire is just a nice role player.

 

[bleediteveryday30]

I haven't quit on the program. And I don't think they've quit on us either.

 

[500HP_Devil]

Let's just address this. How did you get that out of what I said?


There are a lot of contextual facts in this post. I think I agree with the overall point, but not positive that I know what the overall point is. But I think I agree.

I definitely acknowledged that this year lacked the elite talent from the previous years. But that is not new. What's new is the fact that we miss out on the 2-4 year 3/4 star players that it takes to build a successful team with the combination of a couple of top tier players.

As far as what Jay Bilas said, Duke had more success and more consistency prior to the OAD bullshit. Woopty fvckinh do. Remember when Duke won 5 consecutive ACC tournaments? Remember when Duke won their 4th and 5th national championships? That was the Duke standard. We are lying to ourselves when we try to defend our current state.

dude I get it -You don’t like Coach K that’s cool everybody has their own opinion but you’re in the minority. Your poll leaves two options both of them stink.....why not do a poll that says do you support Coach K yes or no and see if the majority agrees with you?

 

[GhostOf301]

dude I get it -You don’t like Coach K that’s cool everybody has their own opinion but you’re in the minority. Your poll leaves two options both of them stink.....why not do a poll that says do you support Coach K yes or no and see if the majority agrees with you?

This isn't about liking or not liking coach K. I never even hinted that I didn't like coach K. You came up with that on your own. This is about the direction of the program. He is the leader and he chooses the direction, but it is not an attack against hime. The poll is pretty simple. If you have lost your passion for Duke basketball, who do you blame, yourself or the program. If you haven't lost your passion, then obviously the poll isn't for you.

 

[LetsGoDuke83]

Agree but that’s the problem they will not return. You know Johnson and Hurt are gone and Roach was OAD when we recruited him so he will probably jump ship no matter what

Roach oad!?! Lmao what??

 

[VaBlueDevil33]

We aren't that talented right now...when you have a 2 star guard as your lead guard enough said

 

[durhamgolfer]

Let's just address this. How did you get that out of what I said?


There are a lot of contextual facts in this post. I think I agree with the overall point, but not positive that I know what the overall point is. But I think I agree.

I definitely acknowledged that this year lacked the elite talent from the previous years. But that is not new. What's new is the fact that we miss out on the 2-4 year 3/4 star players that it takes to build a successful team with the combination of a couple of top tier players.

As far as what Jay Bilas said, Duke had more success and more consistency prior to the OAD bullshit. Woopty fvckinh do. Remember when Duke won 5 consecutive ACC tournaments? Remember when Duke won their 4th and 5th national championships? That was the Duke standard. We are lying to ourselves when we try to defend our current state.

I think you don't actually agree with me then, which is fine. My point was that the program is in good shape even with the one and does and that there are enough 4 year players interspersed for the fan to enjoy watching them develop. Also, I agree that winning championships should be the goal for a program like Duke. But I disagree that we have not done it enough to match our standards. The fact that we have done it twice in the last 12 years is pretty damn good. It is really hard to win it all with a single elimination format, which is why the tournament is so exciting. Dean Smith, for all his brilliance, did it twice in 36 years of coaching.

 

[HeLooks2MuchLikeDave]

Remember when Duke won 5 consecutive ACC tournaments? Remember when Duke won their 4th and 5th national championships? That was the Duke standard. We are lying to ourselves when we try to defend our current state.

So, who would you model your program after, if not Duke?

 

[VaBlueDevil33]

So, who would you model your program after, if not Duke?

Well how bout modeling it after the 90's duke teams...unless you want to model it over most OAD duke teams and have the best team but usually don't win any title...acc regular season or tournament or the ncaa tournament....and note I said most not all

 

[GhostOf301]

So, who would you model your program after, if not Duke?

Duke prior to being the OAD factory.

 

[durhamgolfer]

Well how bout modeling it after the 90's duke teams...unless you want to model it over most OAD duke teams and have the best team but usually don't win any title...acc regular season or tournament or the ncaa tournament....and note I said most not all

The problem with that is that this is not the 90's anymore. Had Grant Hill and Christian Laettner been playing now, Hill would likely have left after his freshman year and Laettner would not have stuck around after his sophomore year, if he made it that far. If you want to focus on recruiting 4 year players, the team would look like a slightly less talented version of the team we have now and I doubt those of you who want to turn back the clock would be happy. Josh. Hairston and Marshall Plumlee were four year players and some of the criticism of them on this site was downright vicious. Someone on DBR pointed out that the issue is not having too many one and dones. Right now it is that we don't have enough.

 

[sheyduke]

The OAD will never yo away do get over it.

Roach being OAD is just sad if anyone is honks that. Same with Williams. Talented yes. Have they put it all together? No.

My one flaw with Duke since the power recruiting dynasty is that there has been no bench progression period. I don’t mind the OAD but when returning players have asked to do nothing more then cheer it’s not on them.
I’ll leave it at this. What happened to,” if you don’t play defense you won’t see the floor at Duke? This entire squad barely plays any .

 

[Devilinside]

I think you don't actually agree with me then, which is fine. My point was that the program is in good shape even with the one and does and that there are enough 4 year players interspersed for the fan to enjoy watching them develop. Also, I agree that winning championships should be the goal for a program like Duke. But I disagree that we have not done it enough to match our standards. The fact that we have done it twice in the last 12 years is pretty damn good. It is really hard to win it all with a single elimination format, which is why the tournament is so exciting. Dean Smith, for all his brilliance, did it twice in 36 years of coaching.

The problem is that there are not enough GOOD 4 year players.

 

[christophero]

The key to this working is the guys who are not good enough need to come back. And that is not always the case. We have the look of a team that is a year away from competing. Which I can deal with if we don't fragment in the offseason.

 

[denverexpat]

The OAD will never yo away do get over it.

Roach being OAD is just sad if anyone is honks that. Same with Williams. Talented yes. Have they put it all together? No.

My one flaw with Duke since the power recruiting dynasty is that there has been no bench progression period. I don’t mind the OAD but when returning players have asked to do nothing more then cheer it’s not on them.
I’ll leave it at this. What happened to,” if you don’t play defense you won’t see the floor at Duke? This entire squad barely plays any .

Given who left and what was recruited, who do you think was meant to be our primary PG? Our inside presence and our go-to player for 1 on 1 situations? Thats what puzzles me. I doubt they put Goldwire in the PG slot to run the team, maybe Roach? Inside I have no clue....maybe we didn't think we needed one since we play a positionless system? For me this is what makes watching the program struggle such a conundrum. We get to pick from the best yet it looks like we missed some pieces and have pieces on the team that don't play at all...so why are they there? Some say its because of the unexpected exits but isn't that now "expected" given how we recruit? Preparation and planning is paramount not just on the court but off it and in the recruiting - and it seems to have missed by a large margin this year. This team has mismatched parts and players in roles that they are not suited to and it shows.

 

[BOOGIEMAN1914]

yeah we have 6 losses and yes turnovers have been problematic and defense seems porous too often and slow starts....all losses with the exception of Illinois (and that one blew open towards the end after a late charge), we had chances to overcome all that and still win....this team has 1 OAD and that one is looking shaky yet will still probably go.....JJ's size and possibilities warrant his being out there....hurt and steward are the most consistent...moore is coming on.........use this season for what it has become and get kids some minutes and experience for moving forward.....next game

 

[jwill133]

Everyone complaining about wishing things were back in the late 90's/early 2000's have a valid point, but with the state of the game, that is never gonna happen again. You are wishing for something that doesn't exist.

You wanna know the best way to win consistently?? Get the BEST players, and keep the BEST players for multiple years. Which Duke always did until 2006 when the draft rules changed. Duke basketball would be equal to Alabama football if the best guys stayed around and grew with the program, but that's never happening again.

I'm in the camp that our player development is the biggest issue within the program right now, not the guys we recruit. So I'll pass on bringing in a bunch of 3/4 star kids since we haven't been developing guys great. K is still doing the best he can to win a title, bringing in the best guys (even if freshman) give us good enough odds each year to have a chance (obviously this year a really bad year for that). But we had a STRONG change with the Bagley team, and an even stronger chance with the Zion team, and that's all you can hope for in these times. We also won the title in 2015, with our best guys being freshman.

 

[dachampishere2]

Everyone goes to college to further themselves for their next career and they make decisions accordingly. How many premeds stay away from liberal arts courses because they knew they won't do as well as in the sciences and need to keep their grades up for medical school. Similarly how many liberal arts majors don't take hard maths and sciences so they keep their grades up to get into law school or phd programs. We don't criticize them or say that they aren't sold on their college. Thanks to the NBA, kids who would not otherwise go to college pretty much have to. Should we really criticize them if their concern is their draft status? That effects their career and yes, they want to maximize their potential salaries, just like the majority of Americans. Why is there something wrong with that?
I think it is doing a disservice to these kids to say they don't care about retired jerseys and banners. Anyone remember Wendell Carter crying when they lost to Kansas in the elite 8. Zion Williamson wanted to be part of something so badly that he came back from an injured knee to play, despite the fact that every pundit thought he would be better served by sitting out the remainder of the games. And, he loved Duke so much that he wanted to comeback from his sophomore year. Same with Carter. History cannot be erased. Those banners will be there no matter what the future brings. Just that the present is not the same as the past.

It’s actually the NBPA that created the rule because it benefits veterans. Also the agents of the players are against it because the NBA will only agree if medical records can be made fully available to the teams. This is why they created this G-League team. One and done isn’t stopping anytime so. Woj said it this summer.

 

[dachampishere2]

All I know is that next year we have no choice but to be good. Paolo will be special. A dominant force. I can’t wait to see that. If we get Baldwin as well we will be crazy good on offense and defense.

 

[Mpm277]

I guess I'm of two minds about all this.

On one hand, you take the best talent that you can get. You play to win now. Both of those seem like no brainers to me. Get the best players you can. I don't think any coach in the country passes up on the OAD players we've acquired the last handful of seasons if they're able to get them.

On the other hand, it's certainly changed our program and our philosophy. Also, and I totally understand that I'm not qualified in any way to make this comment, but I think it's also made K a lazier coach.

Having said that, I don't fault K for adopting the OAD program because the fact of the matter is simply that college basketball itself has changed. We adapted and changed with it to ensure success (and we've had plenty). So I don't necessarily fault K for adapting with the times, my issue lies in it allowing him to become, again in my not qualified opinion, a worse coach because of it.

Is K the goat? Obviously. And I a spoiled fan? Oh, definitely. But part of what comes with being the goat is that you are held to the highest of standards. And holding K to the highest of standards makes me think he's slipping, and he has been for at least a few years. Our talent has masked a lot of it.

I love K. I get goosebumps hearing him recall teams of the past, talking in detail about specific plays 10 or even 20 years ago. He's the greatest basketball mind perhaps ever. Having said that, I will never not believe that K failed as a coach with the Zion and RJ team. That team highlights, I think more than any other, K's adopted coaching philosophy that no doubt was influenced from coaching Team USA; iso ball that relies on talent and players creating for themselves. We had a once in a lifetime player and he had to earn practically everything for himself. And still, it almost worked because we were insanely talented.

What we're seeing this year is the same coaching model we've been seeing for the past several. Just with less talent than we're used to having.

Tell me that the Coach K from ten, fifteen, or twenty years ago couldn't coach this team to be better. Also, to sort of cut myself off at the knees a bit, I'll acknowledge that K would have more time with this group ten or fifteen years ago because they would have fewer leave for the NBA.

 

[Mpm277]

I'll also say that I think we've had a problem for the last handful of years in developing players, as some others have said. Not just the players that stay multiple years, but even our OAD's. Duke has a tendency to hit their ceiling very early. Who we are in mid-December is who we are in March/April. Teams we blow out at the beginning of the year are often not the same team at the end of it when, imo, we generally are.

 

[krzyzewskiville]

This year's team just isn't that talented. It's not that they don't want to win or that they aren't trying. Simple reality is, they're not that talented. So this isn't about this year's team more than it is about the direction the program has gone since adapting to the current environment.

Personally, I think the program sold out. As a 30+ year Duke fan, I always valued teams that had experience and growth. Obviously you want the best talent available, but at what cost? I won't lie, it has taken a toll on my passion for the game. That, combined with covid has really made me give so much less of a **** and that depresses me. Haha.

Anyways, I hope we get back to the point where players earn their scholarships through hard work and abilities rather than their rankings coming out of high school. The NBA drafts based on potential, now the college game has adopted that method as opposed to recruiting based on building a team over a 2-3 year span. Particularly us and Kentucky. And you see where that has gotten both programs.

I've way loosened my thoughts on openly swearing on DI - because it's almost impossible to entirely control. I would ask, however, that you keep the harsher swear words out - alot of people come in and out of here and it's just how we've always conducted the board...Thanks for understanding, @GhostOf301

 

[VaBlueDevil33]

All I know is that next year we have no choice but to be good. Paolo will be special. A dominant force. I can’t wait to see that. If we get Baldwin as well we will be crazy good on offense and defense.

We will see...heard this before

 

[sheyduke]

Given who left and what was recruited, who do you think was meant to be our primary PG? Our inside presence and our go-to player for 1 on 1 situations? Thats what puzzles me. I doubt they put Goldwire in the PG slot to run the team, maybe Roach? Inside I have no clue....maybe we didn't think we needed one since we play a positionless system? For me this is what makes watching the program struggle such a conundrum. We get to pick from the best yet it looks like we missed some pieces and have pieces on the team that don't play at all...so why are they there? Some say its because of the unexpected exits but isn't that now "expected" given how we recruit? Preparation and planning is paramount not just on the court but off it and in the recruiting - and it seems to have missed by a large margin this year. This team has mismatched parts and players in roles that they are not suited to and it shows.

Williams, Coleman and Tape were brought in to play center and some at pf. We’ve only seen glimpses of the other two and Williams is just now playing.
Roach was always considered to take over the keys soon as he could show he was reliable. It hasn’t happened yet. Goldwire is there out of necessity.
Johnson was said to be the guy to get you a basket when needed and has shown glimpses he can do it but

 

[denverexpat]

CFB has a minimum of 3 years commitment before going pro which I think makes talented freshman have to commit to being better because they will be in the program for a significant time. Roll Tide. Contrast that to CBB where you only have to "commit" for 4 months for the season and overall maybe 6-8 months in a program. Easy to let your mind wander and look ahead if you think the NBA is beckoning. As a coach, this would be a hard mentality to overcome when success doesn't arrive early like it hasn't this year. A 2 year minimum would be better but that change wont fix our issues this year or even potentially next.

 

[krzyzewskiville]

That last sentence is the one that really hurts.

There is one fairly simple answer to this that is really tough for some people to get on board with, but it's probably true in basketball more than any other sport: basketball is a game of matchups and Coach Larrinaga and his spread you out office attacks Duke at the heart of its defensive principals.

Duke loves to hedge ball screens and almost always defends over the top or fighting through. Unless we are way late in a game, we don't switch ball screens. If you aren't an elite, experienced defensive team, you're susceptible to being spread out and driven.

If you look back at all the games Coach L has done this to Duke teams, it's the same recipe every time. I've witnessed it twice in person - once in Miami against that 2014 Miami team that just obliterated us.