Article packs some punches
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th.../1/18290521/duke-coach-k-one-and-done-failure
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th.../1/18290521/duke-coach-k-one-and-done-failure
Hard hitting
- Thread starter pisgah101
- Start date
Very accurate reticle. I for one hope Duke never tries to play like Golden State again.
Run some set plays.
Run some set plays.
Debatable excerpt
"Not every recruit that Duke signs expects to go pro after one season. The issue for the ones who do stick around is that the identity of the team changes so dramatically each season that there is no continuity within their roles. Coach K has to start from scratch each summer. Last season’s team was built around two more traditional big men (Bagley and Carter) who struggled to defend in space, so he played a zone and slowed the tempo (no. 105 in the country in pace) to pound the ball inside. This season’s team was built around three 6-foot-7 players with inconsistent jumpers, so he played pressure defense and tried to speed up the pace (no. 27 in the country) to get out in transition. It’s no wonder his bench couldn’t keep up. Players without as much natural talent need to learn to play within a system on both ends of the floor."
"Not every recruit that Duke signs expects to go pro after one season. The issue for the ones who do stick around is that the identity of the team changes so dramatically each season that there is no continuity within their roles. Coach K has to start from scratch each summer. Last season’s team was built around two more traditional big men (Bagley and Carter) who struggled to defend in space, so he played a zone and slowed the tempo (no. 105 in the country in pace) to pound the ball inside. This season’s team was built around three 6-foot-7 players with inconsistent jumpers, so he played pressure defense and tried to speed up the pace (no. 27 in the country) to get out in transition. It’s no wonder his bench couldn’t keep up. Players without as much natural talent need to learn to play within a system on both ends of the floor."
I think this is mostly all accurate. Yeah, an argument can be made that given the talent on this years team, this was K's worst coaching job ever. I just feel like there wasn't much individual improvement throughout the year, and we never seemed to click on all cylinders as a team outside of November.
Forget the improvement though, we were literally still talented enough to win it with the 4 freshman and then a big, we didn't need Jack, didn't really need AOC or Goldwire if were being honest. Would have been great though for those guys to have improved more, though I think Goldwire kind of did.
My biggest gripe was the lack of creative offense ALL YEAR. We had freaking Zion and does anyone remember a single backdoor lob for the greatest college dunker of all time?? I don't.
I surely remember VT getting one on us off a timeout and ditto with MSU.
Forget the improvement though, we were literally still talented enough to win it with the 4 freshman and then a big, we didn't need Jack, didn't really need AOC or Goldwire if were being honest. Would have been great though for those guys to have improved more, though I think Goldwire kind of did.
My biggest gripe was the lack of creative offense ALL YEAR. We had freaking Zion and does anyone remember a single backdoor lob for the greatest college dunker of all time?? I don't.
I surely remember VT getting one on us off a timeout and ditto with MSU.
I think the criticism of K is a bit harsh per "player development" this year. Remember the Jack White we saw thru about mid-season????? Jack simply stopped in his tracks making those corner 3s which were difference makers. Thats NOT on K.
I agree Reddish was inconsistent, but I think staff simply felt he was our best option to score from outside. They felt like they needed to stick w/him. I think Javin is showing signs of development(like his double'-double Sunday).
They won their league crown, just barely missed out on FF for 2nd straight year, are undefeated vs 3 teams in final four, and had a good, if not great year.
Finally when K leaves we're not going to remember him "most for not developing players," but look to the future and wonder if our new coach can win 5 more nattys or how many K ultimately ends up winning.
OFC
I agree Reddish was inconsistent, but I think staff simply felt he was our best option to score from outside. They felt like they needed to stick w/him. I think Javin is showing signs of development(like his double'-double Sunday).
They won their league crown, just barely missed out on FF for 2nd straight year, are undefeated vs 3 teams in final four, and had a good, if not great year.
Finally when K leaves we're not going to remember him "most for not developing players," but look to the future and wonder if our new coach can win 5 more nattys or how many K ultimately ends up winning.
OFC
A team with two first team All Americans and can’t make the final 4.
The article is spot on some are just so blind to any criticism of K they won't allow it to be conceivable. K is the best to ever do it but he hasn't had what I consider a good coaching job since 2015. Hell he almost just rolls the ball out there and says go out talent them and some motivational words which he is still good at. Simple point is our teams don't improve over the course of a yr we come out guns blazing at the start of the yr then its downhill from there.
Its not being blind to criticism of K. Its a refusal to accept criticism from those who only live to criticize and seemingly don't understand sports at all. Great teams...and I mean GREAT TEAMS fail to win the title every single year! The same things people (on here and elsewhere) dislike about K, other teams wish they had. I heard a UVA fan wishing Bennett had the talent K gets every year, but then in the same sentence said Alex and Joey would be studs at UVA...well not if they were behind talent like Zion there. People want K to run a system-based offense so development occurs, but the same people will critique Ol' Roy for sticking to his system even when teams shut it down like Auburn did this year. No one is saying K is perfect as a coach. I think the argument is that he is unfairly criticized for not succeeding when he has been successful. No coach is perfect.
Someone above said its pathetic to not make the FF with 2 All-Americans, how about acknowledging the FACT that K helped make those guys All-Americans? You think theyre both AA at UNC in the "system?" What about at UVA? Do RJ and Zion average 20ppg both at UVA playing in the mover-blocker? Would Kyle Guy really be a scrub at Duke, or is he actually a better player (more motivated/talented) than OConnell? Basically, we all want it to be one way or the other, when its really much more complicated than that.
Someone above said its pathetic to not make the FF with 2 All-Americans, how about acknowledging the FACT that K helped make those guys All-Americans? You think theyre both AA at UNC in the "system?" What about at UVA? Do RJ and Zion average 20ppg both at UVA playing in the mover-blocker? Would Kyle Guy really be a scrub at Duke, or is he actually a better player (more motivated/talented) than OConnell? Basically, we all want it to be one way or the other, when its really much more complicated than that.
If he made the F4 or won the national championship, everyone would be praising him left and right. People can say whatever they want but the fact that he only lost 2 games with a healthy roster is pretty impressive no matter what way you flip it. Does everyone expect an undefeated season? Hasn’t happened since the ‘76 Hoosiers.
1 basket away from a different perspective.
1 basket away from a different perspective.
I think the uber high recruits are (or were since the rules have now changed) attracted to Coach K's flexible and hands off approach.
In 2015 we had some shooting struggles and everyone said we would live and die by the 3 because coach k doesn’t wanna play any other way blah blah he can’t coach yada yada feed the ball inside
Then we won a Natty
“COACH K HAS DONE IT AGAIN HE IS THE GOAT HE ADAPTED TO NEW ERA!”
Stfu already.
Then we won a Natty
“COACH K HAS DONE IT AGAIN HE IS THE GOAT HE ADAPTED TO NEW ERA!”
Stfu already.
Using any connotation of the word "failure" to describe this season, this team, or Coach K is laughable hyperbole. The beautiful, heartless reality of March Madness is that the best team simply doesn't always win. Does that make them failures? Uh, no.
K always recruits the best players. He's a players coach and that's what players love about him. They get to play their game. Sometimes that means we're post heavy, or sometimes we're perimeter heavy. We've won titles both ways, and everywhere in between. Even last year, we had amazing post players, we had two great 3-point shooters in Allen and Trent, but we were awful on defense. Sometimes you just can't have it all. Even when you do have it all, like the 99 Duke team, you still can lose.
1 - "Coach K hasn’t made a Final Four since winning it all in 2015, despite having 11 first-round picks in the NBA draft, if you count this year’s group, in that span."
-That's a pretty weak argument when you dig into it. First of all, one Final Four in 5 whole years? How does Coach K even have a job?! Of the 11 picks (he's assuming Tre goes first round), 7 of them lost single-possession games in the Elite 8 to veteran teams, 3 lost to a Final Four team (South Carolina) while playing in South Carolina. The other was Brandon Ingram in a rebuilding year following the 2015 National Title Season and losing our most of our starting lineup.
2 - "Michigan State, like every other team the Blue Devils faced over the past two weeks, packed the paint with defenders..."
-That's not rocket surgery. Everyone knew how to beat us, and we were still a bucket or a free throw or one fewer turnover or one foul called when Zion was mugged on a post entry pass away from winning. This was the team we had, and it was a damn good one.
3 - "It’s almost impossible to develop a supporting cast when so much of the team turns over on an annual basis. Duval and Trent would probably have been better off returning to school..."
-There's an awful lot to unpack in this statement because it requires a few assumptions to have a shred of validity. The first incorrect assumption is that Trevon and Gary would have stayed but they were recruited over (this is clearly the opinion of the author because he wrote an article dedicated solely to this premise last April). Trevon was one-and-done regardless of the incoming class, and Gary was drafted and is making 1.3 million at 20 years old. Guys coming in have a plan and know roughly their draft stock. Frank Jackson had the exact same plan and isn't any different than Duval or Trent. They are professionals and deserve to work on their craft in a professional environment, not the pseudo-amateurism that the NCAA employees.
The other implied assumption is that, because we ended up being so paint heavy, we should have just developed our perimeter shooters better and, voila, guaranteed title. The only options we had in this regard are Alex or Jack. Even if you can score more a few more points with them on the court, it doesn't matter because they weren't as good defensively as 'Ques or Javin.
4 - "Players without as much natural talent need to learn to play within a system on both ends of the floor."
-The best players are going to play. If you have an NBA-capable player, and you sacrifice some of his playing time in favor of developing his replacement or force him into a system, it gets harder to recruit. Look no further than what the author says later: "Little, once projected as a top-five pick, will be lucky to sneak into the lottery, and his fate will be used against the Tar Heels in future recruiting battles."
-This is the alternative, and the author contradicts his entire article here. His point is that Duke doesn't develop players and they lost because of it, but look what happens when you try to force a player with NBA potential into a supporting, developmental role: they leave regardless. Your alternative is to recruit and be like every other college team out there. The point is, there is no guaranteed path to winning a title. We've had young, incredible talent and lost, and we've had senior, less-talented teams who have won.
5 - "This has been the least successful of any era of Duke basketball since he took over in Durham, and a coach obsessed with legacy will be remembered by a generation of fans as someone who never got the most out of his players."
-That's a joke, right? No one can reasonably judge Coach K's 40 year career over the past few seasons (which have been fantastic by any standard) and claim he never got the most out of his players because Zion didn't win a title. Over the past ten seasons, we've had two national titles, three elite 8's, two sweet sixteens, and 3 early tournament exits. That's pretty damn good. Two of his former players were coaches in the damn tournament even, and most years it could be four or five (Brey, Collins, and Capel).
I read it somewhere on this very board, I think in the middle of last season, that "expectation breeds disappointment." We all have high hopes for our team, especially when we have great players on it. This year they were higher than most. But March Madness is cruel. Was it K's best coaching job ever? Maybe not, but to say he never gets the most out of his players is willful ignorance.
K always recruits the best players. He's a players coach and that's what players love about him. They get to play their game. Sometimes that means we're post heavy, or sometimes we're perimeter heavy. We've won titles both ways, and everywhere in between. Even last year, we had amazing post players, we had two great 3-point shooters in Allen and Trent, but we were awful on defense. Sometimes you just can't have it all. Even when you do have it all, like the 99 Duke team, you still can lose.
1 - "Coach K hasn’t made a Final Four since winning it all in 2015, despite having 11 first-round picks in the NBA draft, if you count this year’s group, in that span."
-That's a pretty weak argument when you dig into it. First of all, one Final Four in 5 whole years? How does Coach K even have a job?! Of the 11 picks (he's assuming Tre goes first round), 7 of them lost single-possession games in the Elite 8 to veteran teams, 3 lost to a Final Four team (South Carolina) while playing in South Carolina. The other was Brandon Ingram in a rebuilding year following the 2015 National Title Season and losing our most of our starting lineup.
2 - "Michigan State, like every other team the Blue Devils faced over the past two weeks, packed the paint with defenders..."
-That's not rocket surgery. Everyone knew how to beat us, and we were still a bucket or a free throw or one fewer turnover or one foul called when Zion was mugged on a post entry pass away from winning. This was the team we had, and it was a damn good one.
3 - "It’s almost impossible to develop a supporting cast when so much of the team turns over on an annual basis. Duval and Trent would probably have been better off returning to school..."
-There's an awful lot to unpack in this statement because it requires a few assumptions to have a shred of validity. The first incorrect assumption is that Trevon and Gary would have stayed but they were recruited over (this is clearly the opinion of the author because he wrote an article dedicated solely to this premise last April). Trevon was one-and-done regardless of the incoming class, and Gary was drafted and is making 1.3 million at 20 years old. Guys coming in have a plan and know roughly their draft stock. Frank Jackson had the exact same plan and isn't any different than Duval or Trent. They are professionals and deserve to work on their craft in a professional environment, not the pseudo-amateurism that the NCAA employees.
The other implied assumption is that, because we ended up being so paint heavy, we should have just developed our perimeter shooters better and, voila, guaranteed title. The only options we had in this regard are Alex or Jack. Even if you can score more a few more points with them on the court, it doesn't matter because they weren't as good defensively as 'Ques or Javin.
4 - "Players without as much natural talent need to learn to play within a system on both ends of the floor."
-The best players are going to play. If you have an NBA-capable player, and you sacrifice some of his playing time in favor of developing his replacement or force him into a system, it gets harder to recruit. Look no further than what the author says later: "Little, once projected as a top-five pick, will be lucky to sneak into the lottery, and his fate will be used against the Tar Heels in future recruiting battles."
-This is the alternative, and the author contradicts his entire article here. His point is that Duke doesn't develop players and they lost because of it, but look what happens when you try to force a player with NBA potential into a supporting, developmental role: they leave regardless. Your alternative is to recruit and be like every other college team out there. The point is, there is no guaranteed path to winning a title. We've had young, incredible talent and lost, and we've had senior, less-talented teams who have won.
5 - "This has been the least successful of any era of Duke basketball since he took over in Durham, and a coach obsessed with legacy will be remembered by a generation of fans as someone who never got the most out of his players."
-That's a joke, right? No one can reasonably judge Coach K's 40 year career over the past few seasons (which have been fantastic by any standard) and claim he never got the most out of his players because Zion didn't win a title. Over the past ten seasons, we've had two national titles, three elite 8's, two sweet sixteens, and 3 early tournament exits. That's pretty damn good. Two of his former players were coaches in the damn tournament even, and most years it could be four or five (Brey, Collins, and Capel).
I read it somewhere on this very board, I think in the middle of last season, that "expectation breeds disappointment." We all have high hopes for our team, especially when we have great players on it. This year they were higher than most. But March Madness is cruel. Was it K's best coaching job ever? Maybe not, but to say he never gets the most out of his players is willful ignorance.
The biggest issue I had with the article was this quote:
'Duke couldn’t afford for even one of its star freshmen to underperform.'
We had 3 star freshman that underperformed in the Michigan State game, and it was still a 1 point game.
Cam & Tre's offense was abysmal. RJ had a decent statline, but 7 TOs is debilitating. Despite that, still a 1 point game, which makes it so much more difficult to take.
'Duke couldn’t afford for even one of its star freshmen to underperform.'
We had 3 star freshman that underperformed in the Michigan State game, and it was still a 1 point game.
Cam & Tre's offense was abysmal. RJ had a decent statline, but 7 TOs is debilitating. Despite that, still a 1 point game, which makes it so much more difficult to take.
Who said we had shooting struggles in 2015?
Matt Jones, Grayson, Sheed( before being kicked off ) Cook and Tyus I don’t remember anyone saying anything about shooting struggles in 2015.
I recall Winslow’s shooting struggles. I don’t recall that being said in 2015
Wow, I really don’t remember Zion getting any backdoor lobs.. seems like we use to do a lot of them in the past..
The whole offense this year just seemed like pickup game style.
I loved watching this team play. Zion made it so fun, and I’m not knocking the rest of the team. Chemistry wasn’t an issue at all.
After thinking about it for a couple days now, we just weren’t talented enough, or at least not consistent enough with that talent. We had 2 guys almost guaranteed to get at least 20 points each, but we would all beg before and during every game for several others to chip in with a solid game. How many games were we fussing cause Tre couldn’t hit a 3, or Cam was bulldozing guys enroute to a 3-12 game?
K went iso ball with our 2 studs. We can disagree with that, but he was going to win or lose that way. He didn’t trust the others to contribute like needed. Whether I thought Alex could have helped, or Goldwire could have helped, K didn’t.
After thinking about it for a couple days now, we just weren’t talented enough, or at least not consistent enough with that talent. We had 2 guys almost guaranteed to get at least 20 points each, but we would all beg before and during every game for several others to chip in with a solid game. How many games were we fussing cause Tre couldn’t hit a 3, or Cam was bulldozing guys enroute to a 3-12 game?
K went iso ball with our 2 studs. We can disagree with that, but he was going to win or lose that way. He didn’t trust the others to contribute like needed. Whether I thought Alex could have helped, or Goldwire could have helped, K didn’t.
Started reading and came across the following statement a couple of sentences in:
“Coach K hasn’t made a Final Four since winning it all in 2015”
I stopped there. The article lost all merit and I can’t read any further with any sense of level-headedness.
A roll out from Allen last year and a potential game tying free throw with solid momentum into a potential OT prevented final fours last year and this year, respectively. Of course I’d prefer blowouts, but what more can you ask as a fan.
“Coach K hasn’t made a Final Four since winning it all in 2015”
I stopped there. The article lost all merit and I can’t read any further with any sense of level-headedness.
A roll out from Allen last year and a potential game tying free throw with solid momentum into a potential OT prevented final fours last year and this year, respectively. Of course I’d prefer blowouts, but what more can you ask as a fan.
Funny isnt it? We win by 1 Sunday and the narrative changes entirely. I sure hope ol Roy is getting slammed on THR as bad or worse than K is here. He lost by close to 20, failed to make the elite 8 (didnt get out of 1st weekend last yr), and his team wasnt ACC CHAMPIONS.
OFC
This has been my biggest gripe all season. Zion put up good numbers. But I feel like he largely did that through his own skill and athleticism. It was him chasing down boards and intercepting passes. It wasn't because sets were being ran for him. I never got it.
Jesus.. yea that’s a little harsh, even for the “What Have You Done For Me Lately” mentality.. 3 Final Four’s in a decade is an unfair standard even for K.
I'm glad half these people weren't around in 94-95, they would have jumped off bridges or worse
Coach K created exiciting basketball at Duke with OAD players but also has brought criticism upon himself because of the OAD era. Its pretty amazing the talent of most of the 5 star players in the last few years but some of the 5 stars like our point guards before this season the author refers to couldnt live up to the expectations. Recruiting a bench is a totally different problem for K the last few seasons but is it because of the 5 stars we did get. Did K think the greatness of the elite players made a strong bench not necessary or was the emphasis all about the getting the elites. Many of the shortcomings the last 3 seasons are likely a direct result of the OAD recruiting but how does a decent coach not recruit the Zions, RJ's, Tatums, Bagleys.
Miami and NCST were middle of the pack ACC teams and both brutally beat us because we shot a million threes poorly. The bottom 8/9 ACC teams were really bad (.500 roughly or worse) and we had some close calls from bad excessive 3PT shooting. I’m sure you remember the ACC tournament game against ND. Incase not, we’re up 15 points at halftime. They had no answer for Okafor, he had like 15-20 points in that first half. I’m not sure if we just lost our minds or what happened but we shot roughly 15 threes in the second half and made 2 of them. Lost the game by 10. That’s a 25 point swing at the expense of 3PT shooting. I was pretty upset with Quinn Cook after that one.
Don’t get me wrong, we weren’t a bad shooting team. We also shot really well in plenty of games. It was just a double sided sword. Being that we were really talented in the paint, there was a bunch of chatter about why we excessively shot threes sometimes. Then some folks said Coach K was responsible for it because our freshmen are better in the paint or driving the ball. Truth be told, Quinn Cook accounted for a good chunk of our 3PTA as a Senior and Matt Jones shot plenty himself too.
I remember Justice having a bad 3-4 game stretch of shooting woes at some point but I believe he led the team at over 40% on the year.
You're embarrassing. Seriously, if you're embarrassed by the performance of Coach K or this team you should probably re-evaluate some things.
I don't see how you can be embarrassed by a team that, when healthy, lost twice by a total of three points all year. I don't know how you can be embarrassed by K's management of that team either.
I'm actually of the opinion that it is much easier to be critical of K's performance last season. He basically allowed Grayson Allen's insecurities to do serious damage to last year's on-court chemistry. Grayson's penchant for gunning when we had the college equivalent of Sampson and Olajuwon in the frontcourt is mind-boggling. I still get pissed when I think back to the games when he attempted more 3s than Bagley and Carter attempted combined 2s.
I'm embarrassed that we didn't make the Final 4. I'm disappointed we didn't win the championship.
Advanced stats described both the 2016 and 2018 teams as juggernauts that based on historical precedents had 70%+ chances of making the F4. The common denominator in our (except for 2015 late-season surge) significant underperformance in the tourney starting in 2012 is Coach K. With most great coaches, you can find small areas where they have blind spots, but with K the problem areas are much larger. An obvious one is the failure to develop and use a bench. When you can essentially fantasy pick your lineup and yet consistently run your starters into the ground, there's only one place to point the finger - the CEO. To me the scary part is that K doesn't appear to recognize that he's the problem, complaining instead, year after year, that we have no depth.
I'm glad that a lot of folks on this board are comfortable recognizing that K's approach is playing a pretty big role in our underperformance.
Sounds like a lot of "fans" are only fans because Duke is good. Which is why so many people are salty because they reIy on Duke to make their lives better. I bet half the people on this board wouldn't be Duke fans if we were a middle of the pack ACC team. Probably ban wagon jumpers from the early 2000s or so. I wonder if we actually face adverse years, who will stick?
National Championships are hard to win. I thought y'all were the team to beat, but to win that tourney takes more than two scorers, and the three ball is the great equalizer. Y'all definitely had the most talent, but doing it with freshmen is like catching lightning in a bottle. And Michigan State is damn good. No shame is losing to them.
It was game planning by Brey that year and Colson. They packed the paint on Okafor and literally all that was left was for Duke to shoot.
I also remember Duke loosing defensive assignments in the second half of that game.
So three games made Duke a poor shooting team. I remember that year Miami and State were good and all it takes is for a team to get hot.
The difference between 15 and 18, Duke progressed through the season this team however didnt they kept the same identity.
I also believe there was a lot of differing on this team then in years past.
Coach K is the GOAT. But currently I wouldn’t give him top 10 status. That’s not diminishing his greatness. Even Michael Jordan when he came back at 39 years old was still the GOAT but he wasn’t a top 10 player at that time. Coach K has accomplished wonders. I think now he’s focused on showing he can recruit at a high level and get as many players to the nba as possible. That was his only knock before. His players weren’t good in the pros. Now we have elite pro players. Job well done Coach. Please hire Brad when you retire. Let’s not play games and hire Wojo or Amaker or Capel
Curious as to how brad would recruit if at Duke?
He always had upper class men on his rosters at Butler.
He could use his NBA talent yet the Celtics core hasn’t exactly meshed especially Irving.
