Liftee said:

I hope Grayson does great. He stepped up when we needed him.

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Dattier said:

Once again, you’re oversimplifying and putting forth a completely black & white claim.

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Mac9192 said:

Capitalism hasn't failed Americans. Our government has. They've expanded their sticky fingers. Which is also why the American Dream is less attainable now.

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Dattier said:

Socialism has failed, but not in a vacuum. The US has worked hard to undermine socialist regimes for more than a century. Where a socialist economy and a totalitarian govt coexist, the former is compromised anyway. Plus, capitalism has definitely failed a growing number of Americans. The American Dream is less attainable than it used to be.

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smashmouth5 said:

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Dattier said:

No, not little fish becoming billionaires. It's a sliding... scale. I'd like to do away with billionaires as we know them today. "As we know them today" would mean undertaxed and buying politicians. We said we wouldn't have a king when we founded this country. An oligarchy is basically the same thing and if they have virtually unchecked power, they're de facto royalty.

Getting money out of politics is key. Easier said than done. I like the idea of eliminating all private contributions. Have a set standard for how to qualify for a ballot -- GOP, DNP, and maybe even Libertarians and Green Party could be grandfathered in, and others could get X number of signatures -- then give them all matching state funds for their campaign. Strengthen ethics and emolument laws. Ban elected officials and military personnel from stock-trading in office or working in certain fields after office. Raise their salaries to offset the greed a bit. (Just spittballin here; it's a rough draft.)

I'm not advocating for complete socialism or communism. There are tenets we've already adopted into US society: libraries, schools, roads, fire departments, etc. I'm in favor of more of it, not all of it. We should embrace unions more fully. We should unapologetically tell the rich that once their wealth amounts to the hoarding of resources, we're going to take it.

Socialism has failed, but not in a vacuum. The US has worked hard to undermine socialist regimes for more than a century. Where a socialist economy and a totalitarian govt coexist, the former is compromised anyway. Plus, capitalism has definitely failed a growing number of Americans. The American Dream is less attainable than it used to be.

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GhostOf301 said:

So forgive me if I am wrong. But you seem to be basing your logic on little fish becoming billionaires. Let me start over by explaining that I believe capitalism gives people the opportunity to live comfortably and be able to save for retirement. I am not pretending that everyone can become millionaires or billionaires just by working hard. We shouldn't expect the same outcome as everyone else. The only thing we should expect is to be rewarded for our efforts and to be able to live modestly and healthy. Socialism has proven to fail everywhere it has been tried. It may be more of a balanced economic class, but it is a lower class.

As far as voting politicians out. That will never happen unless there is a ban on special interests and lobbyists in Congress. That was one of the biggest disappointments from Trump's first term for me. He said he would do it and never even brought it up. Look at Mitch McConnell for shit's sake. That crook would have been primaried a decade ago if it weren't for him being bought. I can go down the list of pieces of shits that need to be primaried in the GOP. But never will be. I am not just talking about the never Trumpers either. Of course my list of dems is a lot longer. Lol

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Dattier said:

Yeah, yeah, thousands of examples. I was being hyperbolic for the sake of expedience. There's very little chance for little fish to rise much. Most of us who rise do so just enough to move into a better adjacent school district. It's not nothing, but it's not much. Since the Boomers, every subsequent generation is doing worse.

The alternative to relying on govt sprinkles is relying on corporate/wealthy sprinkles. You oversimplified and so did I. Again, it's for the sake of expedience.

It's the billionaires who are taking from us. Nobody works 10,000 times harder than anyone else. Nobody actually earns a billion dollars. When you're that rich, your money works for you. You're making passive income without doing a thing. And when it comes to resources and money, the total amount is finite, so one person having that much is absolutely taking it from someone else.

Currently, billionaires get to turn around and buy the govt, then further rig it to benefit themselves at our expense. They should owe a far greater debt than they are currently paying to a system that protects their right to earn so much more. They owe it to the system to make the same opportunities available to others, but instead the income gap continues to grow.

So it seems we agree on a lot of the problems. We also seem to agree that the link between politicians and big money harms all the little fish. I tend to think we have a better chance at voting out politicians who aren't serving our interests than we do letting the free market decide. I trust the democratic process more than I trust capitalism.

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Dattier said:

You discredit every single bit of msm -- 100% -- sight unseen. I admit repeatedly that they are flawed and compromised, but you discredit e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g regardless of how well sourced it is. Then you take as Gospel rants like this and every crackpot w/ a podcast.

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GhostOf301 said:

So in the end, you and I are going to have very similar dislikes about the current state of economic classes. But we are miles apart on who to trust more. You say that there is no chance of the little fish rising in the current environment. But there are thousands of examples of that not being true. You want power to be in the hands of the little fish, but believe that trading corporate power for more government power would actually do this? That's laughable. As far as where the flakes are coming from. I don't think that you need to rely on sprinkles from billionaires. You need to rely on building something on your own and creating your own opportunities. Billionaires owe you nothing. The government takes from you in the guise of being your servant.

I 100% agree with you about politicians being bought. I have little faith that we can do anything about that but would love to see some actions that hold them accountable. Dan Crenshaw is currently whining and bitching about being called out for trading stocks and parroting the call for a $70,000/yr raise for Congress. He absolutely lost his shit over the call for a ban on stock trading for members of Congress. Because they are all doing what they would put you in jail for doing. They are misleading shareholders to hold onto to their stocks while trading theirs away before losses. It's the very corruption that needs to end. That and like you have said, special interest groups and influencers. The medical and pharmaceutical industry is a huge culprit in buying politicians. But you think that we can trust these same politicians to put together a fair and efficient healthcare system?

At the end of the day, we are going to agree on the flaws in the current system. But we don't agree with the solutions. I hate to sound like a status quo guy, but until we have a government run by people who serve the people, it's the better option right now.

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Mac9192 said:

This is the only part that I feel is worthy of a response. There's a reason I discredit msm. They are the ones on the "teat" as you say, and they lie like a rug. The reason Stephen A Smith is brought up is he was aligned WITH YOU less than a year ago. But, he's done what we did 8 years ago. Which is stop believing what we're told, and think for ourselves. He used to laugh at the people on the right, just like you do now. But, unlike you, Stephen A was willing to listen to the other side, and over time, saw that they were proven correct.

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Dattier said:

Don't talk to me about discrediting the messenger when you discredit ALL of msm 100% and suck at the teat of anyone who says something you like 100%. You've now brought up Stephen A Smith at least 3 times like he's suddenly speaking the Gospel.

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Dattier said:

In bold, hyperbole I will otherwise let slide for now. I will acknowledge that the right professes (professes) worshipping the Christian version of God more than the left, on average.

"corporations create far more jobs and disturbes more wealth than the government" Framed like that, I can at least respect where you're coming from. I disagree that they distribute wealth, though, since the Reagan years, at least. Look at the income divide. Look at how corporations prioritize shareholder interests over employees' and clients' interests.

Corporate greed and govt greed are intertwined. Look at how many elected officials get rich during or after their time in office. Look at campaign contributions. Since the horrible Citizens United ruling, if not earlier, corporations have basically bought govt. So their flaws are intertwined. I submit that many of the things conservatives hate about govt are directly related to things they turn a blind eye to when it comes to corporations and private industry. And liberals hate those things, too.

Who do you think is supposed to regulate corporate greed, monopolies, and the continuing consolidation of wealth and resources in fewer and fewer hands? It ain't the free market, because however much I hate Walmart, they're the only game in town, so there's really nothing free about it anymore. The govt is doing a terrible job at regulating corp greed because they're bought, but the concept of govt remains the only viable solution. Doesn't this fit the whole "drain the swamp" thing y'all claim to like?

Here's a line I heard somewhere recently: Most of us are 3 really terrible, unfortunate months away from being bankrupt and homeless. None of us is 3 great, lucky months away from being billionaires. Unlike human and civil rights, resources are like pie. There is a finite amount of money. The more some have, the less others have; this is inherently true of unregulated, pure capitalism. So no, the little fish have very little chance of rising under our current economic system. Again, look at how the income divide continues to grow. (Like, you literally cannot pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. That would be like using one of your own hands to lift yourself off the ground.)

And the image of little fish waiting for someone to sprinkle a few flakes their way... What's the difference between the sprinkles coming from govt or coming from billionaires if whichever one is still sprinkling it just as sparsely? Again, they're currently pretty inseparable. Wouldn't it be better to have more power in the hands of the little fish to begin with?

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