Jackson Declaring without an agent

[Buzzooka Joe]

So your saying sg is the only position in the NBA that doesn't draft on potential because a player averages 16 ppg in college. Yet when you look at most the players you listed they started for the time they averaged 16ppg. So if Jackson had started all season at pg he would be a for sure first round because he would have averaged 16 ppg. By your logic then there wouldn't be no reason to have a discussion about Jackson because had he started, scored 16 ppg, he would be a for sure first round pick like the rest.
But because he still might be. It's not off his potential? Then why was he listed in the early first round prior to the college basketball season with out scoring a point? Could we say it was because of the " potential " many thought he had?
Just asking. Not arguing but you did say 6'3" to 6'4" and you did say averaged 16 ppg. Even though the same ones you mentioned were already listed in the first round without scoring one point at the college level yet.

This is all you have to know to understand my stance...

You are not going to find 6'3"-6'4" NCAA Shooting Guards drafted in the 1st round that haven't averaged 16ppg.. Did you see the list of 6'3"-6'4" Duke SG's I posted? Every single one of them that was a 1st round pick averaged 16+ppg the year they declared.. the ones that didn't, were either 2nd round picks or not drafted..

So if Frank is drafted in the 1st round.. he will be the first ever Duke SG 6'4" or under that didn't average at least 16ppg in a season.. He would also be the first 6'4" or under SG in AT LEAST 3 years (probably a lot longer) that hasn't averaged 16ppg.. he averaged 10ppg..

You can also add Nolan Smith and Trajan Langdon to the list of Duke SG's 6'4" or under that were drafted in the 1st round, but averaged 16+ppg..

You know which Duke SG got drafted in the 1st round and didn't have to average 16ppg??? Corey Maggette.. do you know why he didn't have to average 16ppg??? Because he was 6'6"!!!

You are willing to bet Frank is going to be the first ever to break this trend?

 

[dukedevilz]

If he stayed in the draft, I would think Frank would go in the second round, but you never know. It wouldn't be unprecedented either, as Dion Waiters and Avery Bradley both went in the first round.

 

[DukeJim99]

If you can get a free evaluation and come back why wouldn't you? Size-wise he is a PG by NBA standards so I can understand the concern if Duval comes here. However, if you truly think your NBA ready are you really worried about a freshman then you have no business thinking your ready for the next level.

Either way, he will get his minutes at both guard positions and if, along the way, he improves his defense he can make himself a first rounder next year. This draft seems extremely deep.

Scared of an 18 year old thats never played college. Well he must be nba ready with that mindset

Entering the draft has very little to do with being NBA ready. The NBA drafts on potential, not "readiness."

Harry Giles is almost certainly not NBA ready. But he will almost certainly be drafted in the first round and get paid millions. Because of potential.

 

[sheyduke]

This is all you have to know to understand my stance...

You are not going to find 6'3"-6'4" NCAA Shooting Guards drafted in the 1st round that haven't averaged 16ppg.. Did you see the list of 6'3"-6'4" Duke SG's I posted? Every single one of them that was a 1st round pick averaged 16+ppg the year they declared.. the ones that didn't, were either 2nd round picks or not drafted..

So if Frank is drafted in the 1st round.. he will be the first ever Duke SG 6'4" or under that didn't average at least 16ppg in a season.. He would also be the first 6'4" or under SG in AT LEAST 3 years (probably a lot longer) that hasn't averaged 16ppg.. he averaged 10ppg..

You can also add Nolan Smith and Trajan Langdon to the list of Duke SG's 6'4" or under that were drafted in the 1st round, but averaged 16+ppg..

You know which Duke SG got drafted in the 1st round and didn't have to average 16ppg??? Corey Maggette.. do you know why he didn't have to average 16ppg??? Because he was 6'6"!!!

You are willing to bet Frank is going to be the first ever to break this trend?

But you missed what I said. Would we be having this conversation if he started all year, averaged 16ppg ( which he is very capable of doing). Wasn't he averaging right at that when they inserted him into the starting lineup? That's my point. He could have averaged your 16 ppg I don't think no one here will argue that, had he started all season. That's why he's getting the feed back he is off of his potential to become a pg in the league.

 

[jwill133]

Frank will make for a great combo guard coming off an NBA bench. He is quick and can score, his 3 pt shooting will also be a plus for any NBA team (3 pt shooting has never been more valuable.)

This is the era we now live in, kids no longer dream of playing college basketball, face it.
I still believe he comes back 1 more year due to next years draft being much weaker.

 

[DukeDenver]

Point per minute paired with assists/turnovers per minute is a much better set of stats than PPG. Frank is better than his 10 PPG suggest. The question is: do NBA GMs know this?

 

[Buzzooka Joe]

But you missed what I said. Would we be having this conversation if he started all year, averaged 16ppg ( which he is very capable of doing). Wasn't he averaging right at that when they inserted him into the starting lineup? That's my point. He could have averaged your 16 ppg I don't think no one here will argue that, had he started all season. That's why he's getting the feed back he is off of his potential to become a pg in the league.

Even if he averaged 16ppg, that doesn't mean he would be a 1st round pick.. my argument is that I believe he has no chance of being a 1st round pick until he averages 16ppg, or shows he has NBA level PG skills, or he grows to 6'5"+.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if he averaged 16ppg, because that's basically my whole argument.. That's like saying - "if Frank was 6'6", would we be having this conversation?".. or "if Frank was a true PG, would we be having this conversation?".

If you believe he will be a 1st round pick this year, then you believe he will do something that no Duke 6'4" (or shorter) McD's All-American Shooting Guard has EVER did before.. and something that no 6'4" (or shorter) NCAA Shooting Guard has did in at least the last 3 drafts.

 

[jwill133]

Even if he averaged 16ppg, that doesn't mean he would be a 1st round pick.. my argument is that I believe he has no chance of being a 1st round pick until he averages 16ppg, or shows he has NBA level PG skills, or he grows to 6'5"+.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if he averaged 16ppg, because that's basically my whole argument.. That's like saying - "if Frank was 6'6", would we be having this conversation?".. or "if Frank was a true PG, would we be having this conversation?".

If you believe he will be a 1st round pick this year, then you believe he will do something that no Duke 6'4" (or shorter) McD's All-American Shooting Guard has EVER did before.. and something that no 6'4" (or shorter) NCAA Shooting Guard has did in at least the last 3 drafts.

Russell Westbrook averaged 8 pts a game in college as a shooting guard in college, and now is one of the best players in the NBA. College statistics mean nothing for NBA potential. See Freddette, Jimmer.

 

[Buzzooka Joe]

Point per minute paired with assists/turnovers per minute is a much better set of stats than PPG. Frank is better than his 10 PPG suggest. The question is: do NBA GMs know this?

Frank had a 1:1 Ast/TO ratio and averaged 0.44 points per minute.

Quinn Cook's senior year, he had a 2:1 Ast/TO ratio and averaged 0.43 points per minute.

 

[Dattier]

Russell Westbrook averaged 8 pts a game in college as a shooting guard in college, and now is one of the best players in the NBA. College statistics mean nothing for NBA potential. See Freddette, Jimmer.

You're stepping into a discussion of draft status, not likelihood of NBA success.

 

[sheyduke]

Even if he averaged 16ppg, that doesn't mean he would be a 1st round pick.. my argument is that I believe he has no chance of being a 1st round pick until he averages 16ppg, or shows he has NBA level PG skills, or he grows to 6'5"+.

We wouldn't be having this conversation if he averaged 16ppg, because that's basically my whole argument.. That's like saying - "if Frank was 6'6", would we be having this conversation?".. or "if Frank was a true PG, would we be having this conversation?".

If you believe he will be a 1st round pick this year, then you believe he will do something that no Duke 6'4" (or shorter) McD's All-American Shooting Guard has EVER did before.. and something that no 6'4" (or shorter) NCAA Shooting Guard has did in at least the last 3 drafts.

But isn't that the whole meaning of " potential" you said no 6'3" or 6'4" sg has ever been drafted in the first round, then changed it to Duke sg. But these are points scored in college right or wrong? Meaning they are being drafted on the potential that they can do the same in the league. That is what I'm saying. Every player is drafted on potential there is only a handful four or five that actually score in the league how they did in college. Seth was a combo he averaged your 16 ppg and went undrafted, yogi Farrell went undrafted averaged close to 18 ppg.
You simply draft 18 out of the first 32 picks on potential that they will contribute. Once again also all players you mentioned that scored 16 ppg started for their teams an were first round picks. That's what I'm saying. The whole draft is done on the potential that you can do better in the league or atleast do the same as you did in college. That's why annylist always says "X" player has the " potential" to be really special or good at the next level.

 

[Dattier]

Geez, would you two get a room or something?

 

[sheyduke]

Geez, would you two get a room or something?

We are just having a conversation. But I'll let it go actually enjoyed it. Atleast were not bashing the kid. We're simply just speaking back in forth.

 

[timo0402]

We are just having a conversation. But I'll let it go actually enjoyed it. Atleast were not bashing the kid. We're simply just speaking back in forth.

I have enjoyed reading the back and forth!

 

[hart2chesson]

We are just having a conversation. But I'll let it go actually enjoyed it. Atleast were not bashing the kid. We're simply just speaking back in forth.

And we do have our share of "bashers" at times, but thats what makes it a msg bd

OFC

 

[Duke1783]

Joel Berry back for senior season. He must have heard that Frank declared and realized he had no shot of getting drafted

 

[timo0402]

Joel Berry back for senior season. He must have heard that Frank declared and realized he had no shot of getting drafted

Frank and about 100 other players.

 

[Buzzooka Joe]

Jeff Goodman's response on the David Glenn Show, when asked if Frank Jackson is a 1st round pick this year... "Hell No!"

 

[sheyduke]

Has the kid even formally announced yet?

Jeff Goodman was also the one that said ," Dyreke Thornton and his family saw the writing on the wall with Frank Jackson going to Duke he would be their starting pg!"

Same article stated that 2017 draft boards have Jackson going 14 overall to the Chicago Bulls.

Goodman also goes on to say he's a worthy talent and will start for the Blue Devils from day one!
How did that work out?

 

[hart2chesson]

No, but in my opinion Shey its a foregone hes played his last game at Duke. Frank gave his awl, but then came Duval....A silly pun, but taking the position FJ coveted to make it at next level!

OFC

 

[sheyduke]

It's the kids decision either way. I'm happy for him. I do think scouts, annylist and the media play a roll or atleast factor in when these kids decide to make their decision

 

[DukeJim99]

Frank and about 100 other players.

182 underclassmen players alone:


"The number is the highest it's ever been: 182 underclassmen declared: 137 from college and 45 international players."

http://www.cbssports.com/college-ba...ers-who-have-declared-for-the-2017-nba-draft/

 

[dukiejay]

No, but in my opinion Shey its a foregone hes played his last game at Duke. Frank gave his awl, but then came Duval....A silly pun, but taking the position FJ coveted to make it at next level!

OFC

I just can't convince myself Frank is that scared of competition, especially considering the NBA is his only other viable option, where the competition will be more fierce than at Duke.
Maybe Frank just wants to live his lifelong dream? Sometimes I think we search so much for answers, but the obvious one's are right in front of us.

 

[DukeDenver]

I just can't convince myself Frank is that scared of competition, especially considering the NBA is his only other viable option, where the competition will be more fierce than at Duke.
Maybe Frank just wants to live his lifelong dream? Sometimes I think we search so much for answers, but the obvious one's are right in front of us.

Are you saying I should just have pizza and beer for dinner tonight?

 

[hart2chesson]

I just can't convince myself Frank is that scared of competition, especially considering the NBA is his only other viable option, where the competition will be more fierce than at Duke.
Maybe Frank just wants to live his lifelong dream? Sometimes I think we search so much for answers, but the obvious one's are right in front of us.

True about wanting to "live his lifelong dream." However I cannot help but think Duval's emergence as pg priority recruit from day one in Durham was a factor. It robs him of a chance to grow and develop in that role. I didnt mean to insinuate (sorry if I did) he was running from competition.

Conversely he may well be making the best possible decision for him if he opts to stay in draft. In addition he may simply also see a rather crowded perimeter next year when you add Trent to the mix which could eat up some of his minutes, shots, etc...

Going to miss the heck out of him if he does leave, and one true positive for Frank: He led Duke to an ACC TITLE in Brooklyn as our PG!

OFC

 

[hart2chesson]

Are you saying I should just have pizza and beer for dinner tonight?

Had that last nite DD. Hungry Howies large one topping, $3.99

OFC

 

[dukiejay]

True about wanting to "live his lifelong dream." However I cannot help but think Duval's emergence as pg priority recruit from day one in Durham was a factor. It robs him of a chance to grow and develop in that role. I didnt mean to insinuate (sorry if I did) he was running from competition.

Conversely he may well be making the best possible decision for him if he opts to stay in draft. In addition he may simply also see a rather crowded perimeter next year when you add Trent to the mix which could eat up some of his minutes, shots, etc...

Going to miss the heck out of him if he does leave, and one true positive for Frank: He led Duke to an ACC TITLE in Brooklyn as our PG!

OFC

I get what you're saying and don't totally disagree.

The one thing I would add is that he only has to look as far as Luke Kennard. Remember, many fans, some on this board, thought Luke would be the odd man out this season. He was an All-American. If Frank is willing to work and work hard he won't be robbed of anything. Frank can be an All-ACC performer next season and maybe more. But he's not going to be handed anything....and neither is Duval. Ultimately it will come down to winning and who gives you the best chance.

 

[timo0402]

Guards in 2016-17:
1. Frank
2. Grayson
3. Luke
4. Matt

Guards in 2017-18
1. Frank
2. Grayson
3. Duval
4. Trent

Don't think I'm missing anyone. But my point is that I don't think minutes should be an issue since it's the same amount of depth as last year.

I also can see the Duval being the primary pg as potentially an obsticle but honestly Frank may have brought the ball up a decent amount, but he was hardly a point guard. Same as Grayson or Matt was. Playing off of Duval could be huge though for Frank. Same for Grayson. Frank isn't a PG he's a combo, he should embrace it and realize there are a ton of spots in the NBA for players like that.

 

[hart2chesson]

I get what you're saying and don't totally disagree.

The one thing I would add is that he only has to look as far as Luke Kennard. Remember, many fans, some on this board, thought Luke would be the odd man out this season. He was an All-American. If Frank is willing to work and work hard he won't be robbed of anything. Frank can be an All-ACC performer next season and maybe more. But he's not going to be handed anything....and neither is Duval. Ultimately it will come down to winning and who gives you the best chance.

What you are saying I totally agree with and Luke is Exhibit A! If Frank worked diligently on improving his handles this summer, there's NO QUESTION he could rise well up the ladder!

It wouldnt even have to be in the context of playing PG for Duke next season necessarily! Obviously you are aware of the PRO DAY K has, and I am sure Coach K would afford him every opportunity to play some point guard....So its not like a complete closed door for him to work on his game and get a showing before pro scouts in preseason....

OFC

 

[sheyduke]

Guards in 2016-17:
1. Frank
2. Grayson
3. Luke
4. Matt

Guards in 2017-18
1. Frank
2. Grayson
3. Duval
4. Trent

Don't think I'm missing anyone. But my point is that I don't think minutes should be an issue since it's the same amount of depth as last year.

I also can see the Duval being the primary pg as potentially an obsticle but honestly Frank may have brought the ball up a decent amount, but he was hardly a point guard. Same as Grayson or Matt was. Playing off of Duval could be huge though for Frank. Same for Grayson. Frank isn't a PG he's a combo, he should embrace it and realize there are a ton of spots in the NBA for players like that.

Forgetting O'Connell ( even though I don't see where he'll be expected to contribute).
I think he comes back but like I said, if he's early second bottom first I think he goes.
Might as well get paid to be coming off the bench if that's how he is looking at it.
I think Jackson is good enough to get drafted late first round but he won't start for any team drafting him.

 

[timo0402]

Forgetting O'Connell ( even though I don't see where he'll be expected to contribute).
I think he comes back but like I said, if he's early second bottom first I think he goes.
Might as well get paid to be coming off the bench if that's how he is looking at it.
I think Jackson is good enough to get drafted late first round but he won't start for any team drafting him.

Right I didn't include O'Connell bc I don't see him contributing at all this year.

 

[Mac9192]

Guards in 2016-17:
1. Frank
2. Grayson
3. Luke
4. Matt

Guards in 2017-18
1. Frank
2. Grayson
3. Duval
4. Trent

Don't think I'm missing anyone. But my point is that I don't think minutes should be an issue since it's the same amount of depth as last year.

I also can see the Duval being the primary pg as potentially an obsticle but honestly Frank may have brought the ball up a decent amount, but he was hardly a point guard. Same as Grayson or Matt was. Playing off of Duval could be huge though for Frank. Same for Grayson. Frank isn't a PG he's a combo, he should embrace it and realize there are a ton of spots in the NBA for players like that.

Yes but do you think Frank feels he played enough his freshman season? Matt and Luke are only 2 from 16-17 season that played plenty of minutes every game. Yes Grayson had issues, and Frank a minor injury, but looking through a 5 star kid's eyes, he may have felt he should have played more, and on paper 17-18 team is loaded as well. Purely speculating here but maybe he doesn't want to go thru a similar season as last. Do some of these kids want to share minutes? Maybe he just wanted to pursue his dream and make $$ instead.

 

[timo0402]

Yes but do you think Frank feels he played enough his freshman season? Matt and Luke are only 2 from 16-17 season that played plenty of minutes every game. Yes Grayson had issues, and Frank a minor injury, but looking through a 5 star kid's eyes, he may have felt he should have played more, and on paper 17-18 team is loaded as well. Purely speculating here but maybe he doesn't want to go thru a similar season as last. Do some of these kids want to share minutes? Maybe he just wanted to pursue his dream and make $$ instead.

Frank played 25mpg though, I can't imagine that his problem was the amount of minutes he played, but then again what kid doesn't want to or think he should play the entire game?

There could be any number of reasons that Frank is testing the waters, could be Duval, could be he is chasing his dream, could be a combo, who knows. I just was pointing out that the depth will be the same as it was last year and hell maybe he pulls a luke and forces the staff to have to play him and average the most mpg on the team (35+).

 

[BOOGIEMAN1914]

^yep, depth the same and luke 1103 min and matt 1043 got big minutes that will be wiped away and reallocated

 

[df64]

Frank would have gotten more minutes if he fouled a little less. Lots of games where he fouled within seconds of coming into the game. Sometimes twice. Not dissing him. Very common for many Frosh. He had a very good, if not great year for a Frosh. But, nothing was stopping him from grabbing all the minutes he wanted except his overall play. Same goes for this year if he stays.

 

[hart2chesson]

Yes but do you think Frank feels he played enough his freshman season? Matt and Luke are only 2 from 16-17 season that played plenty of minutes every game. Yes Grayson had issues, and Frank a minor injury, but looking through a 5 star kid's eyes, he may have felt he should have played more, and on paper 17-18 team is loaded as well. Purely speculating here but maybe he doesn't want to go thru a similar season as last. Do some of these kids want to share minutes? Maybe he just wanted to pursue his dream and make $$ instead.

He may very well see the crowded backcourt as a deterrent again this season

OFC

 

[Stevo-910]

with rumors of duval and knox coming in. is it more likely jackson stays in the draft or comes back? i would lean to him staying in the draft. whats everybody else think?

 

[DukeDenver]

with rumors of duval and knox coming in. is it more likely jackson stays in the draft or comes back? i would lean to him staying in the draft. whats everybody else think?

I think the guys coming in are inconsequential. His dad can take care of him financially either eay so really he just wants to quit messing around being a "sort of" Duke student and try being a pro.

 

[Mac9192]

with rumors of duval and knox coming in. is it more likely jackson stays in the draft or comes back? i would lean to him staying in the draft. whats everybody else think?

I agree. I think he's not coming back. Either Coach K knew he was leaving and stayed hot on Knox and Duval or Jackson bolted because of that. Just my opinion.

 

[Danger 35 Zone]

This is all you have to know to understand my stance...

You are not going to find 6'3"-6'4" NCAA Shooting Guards drafted in the 1st round that haven't averaged 16ppg.. Did you see the list of 6'3"-6'4" Duke SG's I posted? Every single one of them that was a 1st round pick averaged 16+ppg the year they declared.. the ones that didn't, were either 2nd round picks or not drafted..

First off you got.......
Austin Rivers Shooting Guard, 6-4, DUKE averaged 15.5 points for a game

And as far as non Duke players you got

Dion Waiters SG, 6-4, 12.6 pts, 4th Pick(1st Round)
Avery Bradley SG, 6-4 11.6 Points, 19th(1st Round

I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about, didn't really read through the back and forth, but is there any reasons these guys don't count as SG that are 6-4 and averaged less than 16.0 points per a game? Especially when one of them played for Duke at one point.