What can we really expect?

[ioliva]

The staff never developed the guys on the bench. They’ve never been asked to score. These guys have been trained to set up guys like bagley, Williamson, Barrett, Tatum. For the past few years , we’ve been riding on our star freshman.We don’t have that this year. Carey is great but can’t take games over on his own. Moore is awful offensively and Stanley is streaky. We need multiple top 5 level recruits to sustain consistent top level play. we refuse to develop our bench players for the sake of letting the freshman ball out. Just when you think baker and O’Connell are starting to find some rhythm , they have a bad play/ game and are ripped away from meaningful minutes. Sometimes they won’t even play, then coach k puts them in and we expect them to be able to hit big buckets. O’Connell barely got in the game with 4 minutes left tonight. Whereas we see a guy like Wendell Moore have awful games and he isn’t held to the same standards. Goldwire told the analysts who did the unc game that he was scared of making a mistake last year and getting yanked. How do we expect our guys to get better and build confidence when they’re constantly being shut out of playing time?


This team is primed for another upset in the first week of the tourney. Very similar to the Austin rivers squad. We’re going to have another good 20+ win season but come out with heartbreak because we’ve only got two guys that can consistently handle a scoring load and the staff has only themselves to blame. Duke fan through and through but I’m very disappointed

 

[Mac9192]

I’m not saying we can’t turn it around, but I’m losing confidence. We are spoiled as a fan base. K built Duke up to be the most polarizing program in all of college sports. In doing that, he’s been able to land the better players. But he ain’t no spring chicken anymore. Sorry. In my opinion, even though he’s in his 70’s, and is now a better recruiter than a coach. He’s not as good a coach as he used to be.

We are in a sticky situation. I believe there’s better coaches out there, but I’m not sure anyone else could recruit like him.

 

[Redickulous4]

Everyone loves to beat us, but doesn’t want be us......if that makes any sense.
Us fans can’t criticize K without being labeled as “not true fans”. Bennett has done wonders with his team of 3 star players but K gets spanked by 30 to wake with 7 4-5* players but we’re supposed to “trust in K”. We laugh at Roy each and every day but honestly, is K turning into Roy?

 

[Alaskan_Assassin_21]

Big picture: surprised our Dukies aren't 3-point shooting in this ERA of basketball. As the NBA has evolved into 8 forwards on the court.

 

[HeLooks2MuchLikeDave]

Everyone loves to beat us, but doesn’t want be us......if that makes any sense.
Us fans can’t criticize K without being labeled as “not true fans”. Bennett has done wonders with his team of 3 star players but K gets spanked by 30 to wake with 7 4-5* players but we’re supposed to “trust in K”. We laugh at Roy each and every day but honestly, is K turning into Roy?

This post is Redickulous

 

[denverexpat]

Big picture: surprised our Dukies aren't 3-point shooting in this ERA of basketball. As the NBA has evolved into 8 forwards on the court.

Man we miss someone like your username on this team!

 

[pisgah101]

This post is Redickulous

why?

 

[Mpm277]

Eh, I mean, you're going to play the best players you have the most out of anyone. I think players like Javin, Goldwire, and AOC just only have so much to offer.

 

[HeLooks2MuchLikeDave]

why?

K turning into Roy? I seem to recall K using all his timeouts tonight

 

[Redickulous4]

This post is Redickulous

At least go a little bit more in depth with the response.
Edit: K used his timeouts. Check.
You’re right, sorry for the confusion.

 

[pisgah101]

K turning into Roy? I seem to recall K using all his timeouts tonight

hahaha sorry didn’t catch that part

 

[duhondukie]

hahaha sorry didn’t catch that part

But he didn’t against Wake

 

[pisgah101]

But he didn’t against Wake

nope you’re right.

 

[Shatterthesky22]

Everyone loves to beat us, but doesn’t want be us......if that makes any sense.
Us fans can’t criticize K without being labeled as “not true fans”. Bennett has done wonders with his team of 3 star players but K gets spanked by 30 to wake with 7 4-5* players but we’re supposed to “trust in K”. We laugh at Roy each and every day but honestly, is K turning into Roy?

Again, we lost in double ot to wake. That loss wasn’t on K. Tre and Goldwire just didn’t step up and step on their throats. Also in terms of talent coming out of high school that UNC team has nearly as much as this Duke team. That’s why they were ranked #6 coming into the year. They are currently 12-17 and have next to no shot at postseason play. Duke is 23-6 and currently ranked in the top ten.

 

[Kobe #1]

I just don’t understand how Duke can have so many great athletes but yet we have struggled to get 3 point shooters that can do it in games the last few years. Without being able to stretch the floor on offense you are limited. I don’t have the answer but Duke needs to start recruiting 3 point shooters and not just the best 5 stars that do not compliment each other......you have to be able to shoot to be great, we do not have that and have not for a while

 

[#1Wildcatfan4life]

You guys are experiencing what we (Kentucky) experience every single year. It’s hard to start over every year with new players regardless how talented they are. It’s fun, but tough dealing with the growing pains. But, it does put you in the running every year. You just have to hope everything comes together in March, along with a little luck. This March is going to be the most unpredictable ever.

 

[youngman42]

Again, we lost in double ot to wake. That loss wasn’t on K. Tre and Goldwire just didn’t step up and step on their throats. Also in terms of talent coming out of high school that UNC team has nearly as much as this Duke team. That’s why they were ranked #6 coming into the year. They are currently 12-17 and have next to no shot at postseason play. Duke is 23-6 and currently ranked in the top ten.

It's on K for relying on Goldwire - he has never stepped up to step on someone's throat and put a game away. He is not a scorer. He is a role player who can give you minutes here or there but he's not a 30 minute player. He's a 7-10 minute guy who may occasion a 15-20 minute game.

 

[youngman42]

The lack of consistently playing even seniors like White and Javin is frustrating. Why would any not-top-25-30 player who has decent abilities, not a walk on, or 150th ranked player - but one who was, say, in the 50's to 125 ranking coming out - want to come to Duke to not-play for K? Other than just to get an education and be treated about like a walk-on?

Baker, White, and O'Connell have all shown great potential in their own unique way. Yet, they are given so many inconsistent minutes. A few of us chronicled White's minutes last week. Same could be said for Baker and O'Connell and Javin. One game they get minutes the next they don't.

If the 3 shooters had been getting some consistent burn - 10-12 minutes a game, more if they are hot shooting, then one is very likely going to step up against UVA.

 

[BM16]

Again, we lost in double ot to wake. That loss wasn’t on K. Tre and Goldwire just didn’t step up and step on their throats. Also in terms of talent coming out of high school that UNC team has nearly as much as this Duke team. That’s why they were ranked #6 coming into the year. They are currently 12-17 and have next to no shot at postseason play. Duke is 23-6 and currently ranked in the top ten.

The losses to State and Wake were absolutely on Coach K. Wake is terrible and State is a mediocre team and Duke looked absolutely awful in both games.

People are rightfully talking about development lacking. The only team Coach K developed since the one/done era was the 2015 title team. Otherwise he has not developed a team since then. He is relying on the talent of these players more so then he is developing them because they’re gone in one year. Remember the 2010 title team? That was a team that totally developed as the season went on and that team did not have any first round lottery draft picks. It was a senior, veteran team that K developed through 4 years. Coach K is definitely losing an edge, this season is more obvious as ever.

 

[duhondukie]

It is becoming more and more evident especially late in games as to how valuable Jeff Capel was on our bench.

 

[pisgah101]

It is becoming more and more evident especially late in games as to how valuable Jeff Capel was on our bench.

i was thinking about this... the couple game capel coaches when k was out he made adjustments and took different approaches

 

[chov1125]

We have some soul searching to do, that’s for sure.

I’m not joining in on the K bashing, won’t do it. The same cast of characters come out annually the minute we hit our lowest point. The same type of people you would never want to be in a foxhole with.

I will say that I’m most frustrated with our half court offense. And I will place blame on everyone from the coaches to the players. Our half court sets don’t seem to be designed to find open looks. They seem designed to allow players to make plays on their own. An NBA type philosophy. That has worked when we have bucket getters, players that can create off the bounce. This roster, outside Tre and Vern (and even they are limited in certain aspects) doesn’t have guys that can break a defense down. We couldn’t do it at the beginning of the year and we can’t do it today.

I’m not at these practices so I don’t know nearly enough to offer an informed opinion. But I’m confident in two things. One is that our coaches are not mailing it in. Stubborn maybe, but not mailing it in. Two is that our players aren’t maximizing their potential. There is plenty of blame to go around from the top down. But the season is not over folks. But let me step to the side now and the over the top K bashing can continue.

 

[duhondukie]

We have some soul searching to do, that’s for sure.

I’m not joining in on the K bashing, won’t do it. The same cast of characters come out annually the minute we hit our lowest point. The same type of people you would never want to be in a foxhole with.

I will say that I’m most frustrated with our half court offense. And I will place blame on everyone from the coaches to the players. Our half court sets don’t seem to be designed to find open looks. They seem designed to allow players to make plays on their own. An NBA type philosophy. That has worked when we have bucket getters, players that can create off the bounce. This roster, outside Tre and Vern (and even they are limited in certain aspects) doesn’t have guys that can break a defense down. We couldn’t do it at the beginning of the year and we can’t do it today.

I’m not at these practices so I don’t know nearly enough to offer an informed opinion. But I’m confident in two things. One is that our coaches are not mailing it in. Stubborn maybe, but not mailing it in. Two is that our players aren’t maximizing their potential. There is plenty of blame to go around from the top down. But the season is not over folks. But let me step to the side now and the over the top K bashing can continue.

I don’t think people are bashing K, what he has done speaks for itself. Someone on here said it best, I don’t want him to retire, I want him to coach.

 

[timo0402]

i was thinking about this... the couple game capel coaches when k was out he made adjustments and took different approaches

You do realize when we lost with Capel people were coming for his head right? Recency bias at full effect here. Not saying K didn’t make mistakes, he did. But even claiming that Capel not being on the bench as a prime reason is laughable.

 

[denverexpat]

Find the press conference and listen to K's comments. He obviously sees the problems we have, but it doesnt look like we adjust to fix them in game. That is the source of my frustration with this year. When plan A isnt working, there is no consistent plan B or C...on either end of the court.

 

[pisgah101]

You do realize when we lost with Capel people were coming for his head right? Recency bias at full effect here. Not saying K didn’t make mistakes, he did. But even claiming that Capel not being on the bench as a prime reason is laughable.

oh i remember I was quite happy with capel and if he’s next (maybe we need a thread on this??) I would be fine with it but I do not even slightly believe capel has anything to do with today’s situation I was just stating that what he did in his couple games was a lot different then K even though it was temporary he was willing to shake things up.. I think it is possible capel felt more comfortable interjecting ideas to K then maybe Jon just because he was already an established head coach

 

[dukiejay]

I just don’t understand how Duke can have so many great athletes but yet we have struggled to get 3 point shooters that can do it in games the last few years. Without being able to stretch the floor on offense you are limited. I don’t have the answer but Duke needs to start recruiting 3 point shooters and not just the best 5 stars that do not compliment each other......you have to be able to shoot to be great, we do not have that and have not for a while

Problem is, we have some of those shooters. They just haven’t been very good. AOC, Baker and Hurt all came in with the reputation of being good shooters. None of them have showed it consistently.

The losses to State and Wake were absolutely on Coach K. Wake is terrible and State is a mediocre team and Duke looked absolutely awful in both games.

People are rightfully talking about development lacking. The only team Coach K developed since the one/done era was the 2015 title team. Otherwise he has not developed a team since then. He is relying on the talent of these players more so then he is developing them because they’re gone in one year. Remember the 2010 title team? That was a team that totally developed as the season went on and that team did not have any first round lottery draft picks. It was a senior, veteran team that K developed through 4 years. Coach K is definitely losing an edge, this season is more obvious as ever.

This is called cherry-picking. You’re honestly going to sit here and say the only developed Duke teams are national champions? My guess is that if Matt Jones doesn’t get ridiculously hot in the Elite Eight or if Zoubs is called for a block against Baylor then K hasn’t developed any teams.

Listen, I’m scratching my heads like others over some things. But I get sick of hearing some of these outlandish theories.

IMO, the biggest area where Duke has lacked the last seven or eight years is mental toughness. That comes from being really young. If we want, we can have a separate argument on whether we should change the recruiting philosophy or not, but that’s what I see most. We were mental midgets against State and totally broke down at Wake. Do we have fundamental breakdowns/issues? Yes, we do. I don’t however feel they’re as glaring as mental toughness.

 

[chov1125]

I don’t think people are bashing K, what he has done speaks for itself. Someone on here said it best, I don’t want him to retire, I want him to coach.

I’m sorry you don’t think people are bashing K? Did you not read through the gameday thread? I’m disappointed in a lot right now and K deserves his fair share. But so many of the posts are just so over the top emotional that it makes rational back and forths impossible.

 

[pisgah101]

Problem is, we have some of those shooters. They just haven’t been very good. AOC, Baker and Hurt all came in with the reputation of being good shooters. None of them have showed it consistently.


This is called cherry-picking. You’re honestly going to sit here and say the only developed Duke teams are national champions? My guess is that if Matt Jones doesn’t get ridiculously hot in the Elite Eight or if Zoubs is called for a block against Baylor then K hasn’t developed any teams.

Listen, I’m scratching my heads like others over some things. But I get sick of hearing some of these outlandish theories.

IMO, the biggest area where Duke has lacked the last seven or eight years is mental toughness. That comes from being really young. If we want, we can have a separate argument on whether we should change the recruiting philosophy or not, but that’s what I see most. We were mental midgets against State and totally broke down at Wake. Do we have fundamental breakdowns/issues? Yes, we do. I don’t however feel they’re as glaring as mental toughness.

I agree with most of this.. my biggest issue is this years team has veterans.. we are an “older” team then we’ve had since maybe 13 and yet those older players have showed little to no development over their time at duke. That’s a serious issue IMO other teams develop very similar players and then make nice runs as Jrs or SR

 

[chov1125]

Problem is, we have some of those shooters. They just haven’t been very good. AOC, Baker and Hurt all came in with the reputation of being good shooters. None of them have showed it consistently.


This is called cherry-picking. You’re honestly going to sit here and say the only developed Duke teams are national champions? My guess is that if Matt Jones doesn’t get ridiculously hot in the Elite Eight or if Zoubs is called for a block against Baylor then K hasn’t developed any teams.

Listen, I’m scratching my heads like others over some things. But I get sick of hearing some of these outlandish theories.

IMO, the biggest area where Duke has lacked the last seven or eight years is mental toughness. That comes from being really young. If we want, we can have a separate argument on whether we should change the recruiting philosophy or not, but that’s what I see most. We were mental midgets against State and totally broke down at Wake. Do we have fundamental breakdowns/issues? Yes, we do. I don’t however feel they’re as glaring as mental toughness.

Love this and agree with it. I mean look how much a single year of experience helped Tre. Last year in the tournament teams weren’t even guarding him. Look at the mental toughness now. If we had 4 others with anywhere near the mental toughness of Tre right now we wouldn’t be talking about any of this.

I will hedge off this in one area though, not as a disagreement but an additional point. Experience doesn’t always create mental toughness. Look at some of our older guys, especially Jack. Hate it for the kid but there’s no way around it, he hasn’t built any mental toughness at Duke. This is the second year in a row where he has come out early and shot the hell out of the ball only to hit a rough patch and be incapable of getting himself out of it. He played a lot last night for his defense and rebounding. But if you gave him 20 open looks from 3 I would put money down that he would have gone 0/20. Javin isn’t much better. He has glimpses but is so darn inconsistent. And when he’s bad, he’s glaringly bad. Alex, Joey, same thing. We have talent on this team, but no consistency whatsoever. And consistency is kind of important in a single elimination tournament.

But to bring it back, development is so damn tough for Duke right now. To build the needed scar tissue over a few short months is tough. I would love to see Tre’s story become the norm. But unfortunately it’s not trending that way. It’s trending so much that Tre’s story is the very rare exception.

 

[timo0402]

I agree with most of this.. my biggest issue is this years team has veterans.. we are an “older” team then we’ve had since maybe 13 and yet those older players have showed little to no development over their time at duke. That’s a serious issue IMO other teams develop very similar players and then make nice runs as Jrs or SR

Like who? I’m not even saying you’re wrong but i see this all the time. “We don’t develop players, we regress after December“ etc. It’s such a tired cliche.

At some point we have to realize some of these guys just aren’t good enough. This team isn’t good.

Jack played what 15 min last night and scored zero? There is an entire thread on this board calling out K for not playing Jack and how good he had been playing before mysteriously finding the bench. So which one is it? He’s not developed or he’s just not good enough? K is getting bashed for benching him so something has to give. What about Hurt? He’s only a freshman, he’s shown inconsistency so K benched him (rightly so imo) and plays juniors and seniors. Granted i would have put in JRob over Javin, but we can’t cry “we are young” and cry “we don’t develop guys” at the same time. He’s tried a million different lineups and quite frankly nothing works.

 

[christophero]

I remember hearing a coach say that bench players tend to perform better at home. This may be true for us. Seems like AOC and Jack and Baker shoot better at home, whether it be confidence or familiarity. The only way to get some momentum back is to win these next two games at home.

 

[sheyduke]

To add to what many have said, Tre is frustrated you could see it.

Hurt, Alex and Baker need to step up. IMO , this team lacks the killer instinct . There are times even with Big Vern you should dunk the ball or take the foul but they avoid contact and go for a soft move and miss an easy lay up. Hurt is a head scratcher to me. So many tools yet his youth at this level appears more then his talent.

Carey and Tre need help and consistency going forward or it’s gonna be pack the paint on Carey and ball hawk Tre.

As for Moore he needs to quit with the step backs and fade aways and attack the basket so does Stanley. Stanley was barely able to get into the lane last night and that is his strong suit.

 

[pisgah101]

Like who? I’m not even saying you’re wrong but i see this all the time. “We don’t develop players, we regress after December“ etc. It’s such a tired cliche.

At some point we have to realize some of these guys just aren’t good enough. This team isn’t good.

Jack played what 15 min last night and scored zero? There is an entire thread on this board calling out K for not playing Jack and how good he had been playing before mysteriously finding the bench. So which one is it? He’s not developed or he’s just not good enough? K is getting bashed for benching him so something has to give. What about Hurt? He’s only a freshman, he’s shown inconsistency so K benched him (rightly so imo) and plays juniors and seniors. Granted i would have put in JRob over Javin, but we can’t cry “we are young” and cry “we don’t develop guys” at the same time. He’s tried a million different lineups and quite frankly nothing works.

You can’t let these guys rot on the bench for 4 years (or 5) and then expect them to show up their last year. Jack, AOC, goldwire (which has developed), javin, J-rob, and evening Baker.. they’re the same player that came to duke as freshmen. You’ll never “be old” doing that. We say all the time they could go to most schools and play 30 min and it’s true they would have as freshmen and now they would be seasoned but we have 0 seasoned players. If you want to say they’re just no good that’s fine but K is the one recruiting them so that’s some terrible recruiting outside of the one and dones if he can’t ever get capable backups.. there are many players in college basketball over the past few years that HE could have recruited that we’re ranked around the same that eventually put up numbers that would have jumped at a duke offer.

 

[Friction.]

Hurt not playing to the level we need seems to really be hurting us. We are still having trouble getting the ball to Carey in the post and Hurt as a stretch 4 would help solve that. Teams are just squeezing in the post and doubling every time. It just seems like an uncharacteristic year for us with the amount of TO’s.

Also, is it just me, or is Duke just too easy to prep for this year? If you have a team with good slashers or guys who can get to the rim, we are susceptible to an L. Teams will just abandon their normal game plan (see Wake and Clemson) and just iso and drive on the best matchup. It’s weird because I think Duke can take the top programs right now because those teams play “their” game while the inferior teams will rip up their playbook and just drive.

 

[HuffyJB]

I'm looking at numbers to try to give myself a little perspective during a stretch where Duke has played its way down one or maybe two seed lines.

I think the talent differential between Duke/Louisville/FSU is negligible, and I think one could make a compelling argument that Duke, as they are currently comprised (not the players Hurt, etc. will eventually become) is third among those three. UVA is behind them talent-wise, but the gap isn't that big IMO - Clark, Diakete, Key, and Huff are legit ACC players, and three of the four are upperclassmen. Here are the ACC road records for those four teams:

Duke - 6-4
Louisville - 6-3
FSU - 5-4
UVA - 6-3

Pretty much the same across the board.

In addition, Duke has without question the best nonconference win in the league (neutral over Kansas) and potentially the second best nonconference win as well (@ MSU).

 

[QC Dukie]

I'm looking at numbers to try to give myself a little perspective during a stretch where Duke has played its way down one or maybe two seed lines.

I think the talent differential between Duke/Louisville/FSU is negligible, and I think one could make a compelling argument that Duke, as they are currently comprised (not the players Hurt, etc. will eventually become) is third among those three. UVA is behind them talent-wise, but the gap isn't that big IMO - Clark, Diakete, Key, and Huff are legit ACC players, and three of the four are upperclassmen. Here are the ACC road records for those four teams:

Duke - 6-4
Louisville - 6-3
FSU - 5-4
UVA - 6-3

Pretty much the same across the board.

In addition, Duke has without question the best nonconference win in the league (neutral over Kansas) and potentially the second best nonconference win as well (@ MSU).

Yea but we’re trash, and won’t make it out of the first weekend.

 

[PixelDevil]

Reading this thread

Spoiler

 

[rob5894]

Hurt not playing to the level we need seems to really be hurting us. We are still having trouble getting the ball to Carey in the post and Hurt as a stretch 4 would help solve that. Teams are just squeezing in the post and doubling every time. It just seems like an uncharacteristic year for us with the amount of TO’s.

Also, is it just me, or is Duke just too easy to prep for this year? If you have a team with good slashers or guys who can get to the rim, we are susceptible to an L. Teams will just abandon their normal game plan (see Wake and Clemson) and just iso and drive on the best matchup. It’s weird because I think Duke can take the top programs right now because those teams play “their” game while the inferior teams will rip up their playbook and just drive.

We have a stretch 4 who played pretty good the last two games and didn’t play one second last night. JRob

 

[bullcity gamer]

It’s a new month guys and gals. Let’s continue to support Our Blue Devils and enjoy every single game they play for the remainder of the season. Hopefully if they play in Indianapolis (Sweet 16/Elite 8) and/or Atlanta (Final 4/National Championship), I will get to meet some of you there. Have a great Sunday everyone and tune in to watch our NBA Team, The Pelicans continue to make a push for the playoffs as they take on the Lakers tonight on ESPN.