I know this topic has been discussed, but what is your preference? 4-5 One and Done Freshmen every year or a bunch of rated 30+ Recruits (bottom of the 5 stars and top of the 4 star rated players) to construct Duke basketball teams? Reason y I bring this up is I look at Villanova’s roster since the 2015-2016 season. Brunson, Paschall, Bridges, and Booth are all Juniors this year. They won the championship their Freshman year, got eliminated in the 2nd round in 2017 as Sophs against Wisconsin, are headed back to the Final 4 their Junior year with a great chance to win their 2nd national championship in 3 years, and will be tough again next year as Seniors. Duke has won championships while using each method.
OADS or 3-4 Year Players?
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The argument can be made to not turn talent away, but in a more perfect scenario, I'd prefer 2-3 one and dones with multiple year guys.
I realize you can't predict 100% if a kid will stay or not, but you have to have experience.
Kentucky in 12 had multiple veterans, as did our 15 team.
Next season will require Duke fans to have more patience than ever. I don't care how good RJ, Cam or Zion are, they're still unproven, and will have a lot of learning to do.
A four star hard working college junior is as good in many cases as the 5 star one and done freshmen.
I realize you can't predict 100% if a kid will stay or not, but you have to have experience.
Kentucky in 12 had multiple veterans, as did our 15 team.
Next season will require Duke fans to have more patience than ever. I don't care how good RJ, Cam or Zion are, they're still unproven, and will have a lot of learning to do.
A four star hard working college junior is as good in many cases as the 5 star one and done freshmen.
Upperclassmen all day. No team has won with as many freshman as we had this year. I can’t wait for OAD to go away so we can get back to having kids that want to develop and want to grow with the program.
Best players available.
I just want to point out that being in the program for 4 years does not automatically make you a clutch shooter or great leader in crunch time.
I just want to point out that being in the program for 4 years does not automatically make you a clutch shooter or great leader in crunch time.
Nobody would choose 4-5 one and dones every year. That's not a good long term plan. We sort of got stuck with having to do it this year. This was the first time we ever did it and the season went ok. It wasn't an embarrassing or terrible season.
We are going to do the 4-5 one and dones again next year. And all we can do is hope for the best!
We are going to do the 4-5 one and dones again next year. And all we can do is hope for the best!
How about reframing it a little....would you rather be Virginia who has ACC league and tournament wins but no national championship..but plays together and has good not great recruitng classes or go all in and try to win the national championship with OAD every year...obviously both could be the answer but histrory says its not - see our own experience. Personally, I'd like to get a great player and good players who buy in to the program - aka Villanova, for me part of the enjoyment is watching the journey and growth of the players on the team..i really dont like a new team every year.
I really like UVA's style. And Nova certainly has got a good thing going right now. But I'm excited about Duke. Next year will be the 2nd time we are gonna go all in with the one and dones. Nobody knows yet if it will fail or succeed. I'm gonna stay optimistic though.
I want the best all day but I really miss seeing guys multiple years.
OAD will be over soon, and I'm glad, hopefully then we can enjoy players for multiple years.
I just keep imagining how the last 3 years go with Tyus Jones. I could of seen four final fours and a few titles easily.
OAD will be over soon, and I'm glad, hopefully then we can enjoy players for multiple years.
I just keep imagining how the last 3 years go with Tyus Jones. I could of seen four final fours and a few titles easily.
While it wont guarantee the shot falls....4 years under the tutelage of Coach K about leadership would certainly be beneficial and I think would prodcue more battiers who can manage end games for better outcomes
Perhaps, but one can argue that Battier was capable of that as a freshman. That was a very different time in college ball when players were just starting to leave early. Battier was incredibly mature for his age. That can work for a number of 4 year players. Duhon was mature when he arrived, so was Singler, so was Scheyer. I could also offer, how much more leadership did Will Avery demonstrate by being there a second year? Did you consider Redick a true leader (I don't feel he necessarily was just because he was an elite player)?
I think that for truly elite prospects we overestimate just how much they can learn in those extra years in school and having those extra years doesn't guarantee a great deal of growth.
Just putting it out there that we did advance further than UVA and very nearly made the Final Four. So we're knocking on the door. Barring that buzzsaw last year I think we go to 16 or 8. So the model is not broken. And we will have upperclassmen next year who played, although some not that much.
Winning a title with a group of seniors is clearly the most fulfilling, I don't think anyone would argue against that. But prior to 2011, there is not a single Duke fan in the entire world that would have not wanted this clear and utter recruiting domination. We've become spoiled to the point that we think we can cherry pick who comes here, who stays here, and for how long.
Exactly. Last year was a freak occurrence with all the injuries--we could have easily skated into the final four with a healthy Giles and a confident Bolden. Don't forget all of Grayson's trevails, or Coach K's back, or even Tatum's injury. This year we were a bounce away from the Final Four--just like we were in 1992 when that shot went it.
I think the answer to the OP's question is obviously both. We need guys around 4 years for experience and leadership, but I sure as hell want guys like Bagley whenever we can get them.
What has thrown the dynamic for a little bit of a loop is some guys leaving earlier than expected, primarily a guy like Frank Jackson. Even before last year, no one thought Luke was going to blow up the way he did, and he hit the road. We need the Ingrams, Bagleys, Tatums, Barretts, etc., and we need some seasoned guys to go with. Lately a few guys have left that weren't necessarily expected, but nothing is broken. This year's team was a rimmed-out buzzer beater from still playing.
It will go a long way if one of the guys expected to go ends up staying this year, with Duval and Trent being the candidates there. But I highly doubt that occurs. Bolden, Delaurier, O'Connell, and White will return, but leadership is always more meaningful if it comes from top players.
What has thrown the dynamic for a little bit of a loop is some guys leaving earlier than expected, primarily a guy like Frank Jackson. Even before last year, no one thought Luke was going to blow up the way he did, and he hit the road. We need the Ingrams, Bagleys, Tatums, Barretts, etc., and we need some seasoned guys to go with. Lately a few guys have left that weren't necessarily expected, but nothing is broken. This year's team was a rimmed-out buzzer beater from still playing.
It will go a long way if one of the guys expected to go ends up staying this year, with Duval and Trent being the candidates there. But I highly doubt that occurs. Bolden, Delaurier, O'Connell, and White will return, but leadership is always more meaningful if it comes from top players.
This team lacked one upperclassman. Had a Luke Kennard had hung around one more year our season is totally different. I’m tired of 4 and 5 freshmen leading the team into battle. We seen some great individual efforts bar none but that only ups their ante at draft day. It’s not a proven formula to load down the hardware case. Go back as far as the fab five and there has only been two nattys won with freshmen laden teams. Look at our 2010 team . They won a Natty on experience not athleticism the same reason the cheats won last year. Upperclassmen are older, experienced, and flat out stronger.
Sometimes though I feel that the Senior leader gets the ball in end game situations when someone else would of been better.
Last night Grayson ALMOST hit the shot but I think we all agree Carter or Bagley getting the ball would of been a higher percentage play.
Same as 1999, that one killed me. Langdon got the ball when Avery or Brand should of....
So I don't necessarily think upper classmen make the difference in winning and losing.
Last night Grayson ALMOST hit the shot but I think we all agree Carter or Bagley getting the ball would of been a higher percentage play.
Same as 1999, that one killed me. Langdon got the ball when Avery or Brand should of....
So I don't necessarily think upper classmen make the difference in winning and losing.
I think everyone prefers how it used to be. That doesn't make it the best, or only way, though.
Our group this season was close to being in the Final Four. Getting one stop or scoring on that last possession and we're still playing. I love Grayson and I've loved our past juniors and seniors, too. But I also love talent.
The groups we had from 2007 to 2009 were great kids and made many of us proud. Unfortunately, they weren't great teams. I'd venture to guess some of the same people complaining today about us being young were pissed those season's, too. Losing in the first round to VCU? Getting thoroughly embarrassed against WVU and Villanova in 2008 and 2009, respectively? Those times were much, much harder than now. We weren't close to the level of team we had last season or this year. Not even close.
It's crazy to think how the whole dynamic of this board would be completely different right now if just one shot had went in. Think about that.
Our group this season was close to being in the Final Four. Getting one stop or scoring on that last possession and we're still playing. I love Grayson and I've loved our past juniors and seniors, too. But I also love talent.
The groups we had from 2007 to 2009 were great kids and made many of us proud. Unfortunately, they weren't great teams. I'd venture to guess some of the same people complaining today about us being young were pissed those season's, too. Losing in the first round to VCU? Getting thoroughly embarrassed against WVU and Villanova in 2008 and 2009, respectively? Those times were much, much harder than now. We weren't close to the level of team we had last season or this year. Not even close.
It's crazy to think how the whole dynamic of this board would be completely different right now if just one shot had went in. Think about that.
Exactly.....I said the same thing last night when Allen was being criticized.
That shot at the end of regulation goes in. And everyone is singing his praises
And some of the loudest voices singing his praises would be the one's who are being dicks now.
Man, it was SO close!! I really didn't have a lot of confidence that we would have beat Villanova, but still would like to have found out.
Up 3 with 30" to go......wow. Kansas also took what I felt like we're way too long range, ill advised shots toward the end of regulation. It just seemed like it was going our way. I thought we had it. Kansas's three to tie it, Grayson shot, and the call on Wendell that should have been a charge are all I can think about
I would much rather have 3 and 4 year players instead of one and dones. If a player has a great year and their stock soars, I am fine with them leaving. But essentially going and recruiting players that you know for a fact will only be at Duke for 1 year is not why I am a Duke fan. Because Duke is about more than basketball to me, I prefer guys that I can watch for more than one year in a Duke uniform. I hate to say it but I don't really feel much of a connection to players that I only watch put on a Duke uniform for 35 or so games.
I can only speak for myself but that shot going in would not change my overall preference for longer term players. I would be happy to see Duke advance and maybe win the NT but it would be slightly hollow compared to other titles where the connection to the team was deeper. Its beyond just winning for me.
I have thought about this scenario as well. Guard play gets you far in the tournament. Tyus and Winslow played their way into the 1st round with their fantastic play in the 2015 NCAA tournament. I do not think either was expected to be a 1 and done player, but their stocks soared with the tourney so they went for the $. Tyus and Grayson together in the backcourt for 3-4 years would have gotten Duke to multiple Final 4s. 2016: Tyus, Allen, Kennard, Ingram, Jones, Jefferson, MP3, 2017: Tyus, Allen, Kennard, Jones, Giles, Tatum, Bolden, 2018: Tyus, Allen, Trent, Carter, Bagley, Bolden, DeLaurier. I know it’s a moot point to think about the possibilities because a lot of other teams could say the same thing.
Yeah, I agree 100% with your statement. Every school out there has had 4 year players who weren't necessarily clutch shooters or great leaders.
Last nights lose is a-lot easier to digest knowing there are numerous OAD's walking in
And the lose isn't as extreme with only Grayson that I've created a lasting relationship with
And the lose isn't as extreme with only Grayson that I've created a lasting relationship with
While true...who combined to hit the 3 at the end of the game for KS? 2 seniors... ;-)
An interesting read on what the OAD parent mindset can be....Mrs Carter
https://theundefeated.com/features/duke-wendell-carter-jr-one-and-done-is-right-move/
https://theundefeated.com/features/duke-wendell-carter-jr-one-and-done-is-right-move/
I think it's beyond winning for most fans....that still doesn't make one way right or wrong, or more specifically, you right or wrong.
Who scored every single point in the second half of the 2015 national championship game?
Nope, never asserted that it was anything more than my opinion. If there was a definitive right or wrong everyone would follow the same course. That is what makes the game and forums interesting. Differing points of view.
Touche...although i bet that statistic lasts for decades if not forever as an anomaly
