Bagley and Giles

[hart2chesson]

I'll say Austin Rivers is probably the biggest scapegoat for a OAD rather than Bagley. While I certainly rate Marvin very highly among all of our freshmen talents, I wouldnt say he is "Best of All-Time." I would say he's maybe our best OFFENSIVE talent ever,however his deficiencies on the DEFENSIVE END are simply too great to give him top honors.

I'll say Jah is the best OAD, because I simply thought he had the all around better game. Plus I think you have to factor in TEAM ACHIEVEMENTS, and he was a big part of the '15 ride to a natty.

OFC

 

[QC Dukie]

Bags isn't even the biggest scapegoat on the previous team. Duval usually gets most of the blame, doesn't he?

Nope Grayson does

 

[hart2chesson]

Nope Grayson does

Excellent observation QC....

OFC

 

[jwill133]

Who cares about the scapegoat? Marvin has been unfairly criticized by posters all year on here, going all the way back to August when he committed to Duke. Most of the asinine reasons given on here are beyond Marvin’s control, making it even more ridiculous.

Marvin made Duke that much better, our offense was near unstoppable. And he may walk in and immediately be the Kings best player.

The thread is called Bagley/Giles. Where is the love for Harry????
Multiple summer league analysts have said Harry has been one of the biggest surprises of the summer league, think he could be a real NBA player this year (unlike Justin Jackson, lol.)
If Harry turns out to be 80% of the player he was projected to be, that’s an NBA rotation guy, maybe even a starter.

 

[DukeJim99]

Best freshmen maybe ever on the offensive side, but not the best ever overall. It's a stretch to say he's the biggest scapegoat as well.
His defense was way too weak, he was lost when we crossed halfcourt and played defense. .9 a game in blocks and 1.5 assists a game. Carter averaged 2 blocks and 2 assists.
The best overall freshman in years was Okafor. Not only was he dominant down low, he was a very willing passer from the post. The others benefited from his game more than the others benefited from Marvins game.
Marvin should have a very productive pro career though.

I loved having Okafor, but statistically he wasn't a huge plus for us. In fact, statistically we were better on offense with Plumlee in the game rather than Okafor (albeit the sample size on that isn't huge). And Plumlee was the better defender as well. Not that Plumlee was a good offensive player. But he knew his role on offense - set screens, rebound, and either get an easy putback or dish it out for a 3. We were such a good three-point shooting team that year that, despite Okafor shooting what, 65%(?), we were actually better off not focusing our offense around him. While he shot 65%, those were all twos. Combining that with his proclivity for turning the ball over (not unique to him as a big man), we did better on offense when he touched the ball less.

Remember, we came back to win the Natty with Okafor mainly sitting the bench.

He was still a total stud. But I don't think he was better than Marvin.

 

[PatrickYates]

Nope Grayson does

If the season's failures are actually the fault of some, unnamed, person, then is that person the scapegoat? Or is that, again, unnamed, person's fault? Just asking.

 

[hart2chesson]

I loved having Okafor, but statistically he wasn't a huge plus for us. In fact, statistically we were better on offense with Plumlee in the game rather than Okafor (albeit the sample size on that isn't huge). And Plumlee was the better defender as well. Not that Plumlee was a good offensive player. But he knew his role on offense - set screens, rebound, and either get an easy putback or dish it out for a 3. We were such a good three-point shooting team that year that, despite Okafor shooting what, 65%(?), we were actually better off not focusing our offense around him. While he shot 65%, those were all twos. Combining that with his proclivity for turning the ball over (not unique to him as a big man), we did better on offense when he touched the ball less.

Remember, we came back to win the Natty with Okafor mainly sitting the bench.

He was still a total stud. But I don't think he was better than Marvin.

I still say Jah was better because he worked with others SURROUNDING him more capably. The thing I liked about Jah was he would RELOCATE the ball outside when he had no inside moves. Despite his foul troubles in the season finale title game, he still hit a HUGE SHOT w/Frank The Tank draped over him in the game's closing minutes that helped seal the deal.

OFC

 

[hart2chesson]

Who cares about the scapegoat? Marvin has been unfairly criticized by posters all year on here, going all the way back to August when he committed to Duke. Most of the asinine reasons given on here are beyond Marvin’s control, making it even more ridiculous.

Marvin made Duke that much better, our offense was near unstoppable. And he may walk in and immediately be the Kings best player.

The thread is called Bagley/Giles. Where is the love for Harry????
Multiple summer league analysts have said Harry has been one of the biggest surprises of the summer league, think he could be a real NBA player this year (unlike Justin Jackson, lol.)
If Harry turns out to be 80% of the player he was projected to be, that’s an NBA rotation guy, maybe even a starter.

Agree with you about Harry, pulling hard for him! His block vs UNC at one end and alley oop at the other end from Grayson is indelibly etched in my mind (ACC Tourney).

Conversely per your point about Marvin's play, I would submit to you he could have played better D, this was not "beyond his control." I would say this is especially true of zone defense, where defensive principles are traditionally easier.

OFC

 

[dukehokie]

Best freshmen maybe ever on the offensive side, but not the best ever overall. It's a stretch to say he's the biggest scapegoat as well.
His defense was way too weak, he was lost when we crossed halfcourt and played defense. .9 a game in blocks and 1.5 assists a game. Carter averaged 2 blocks and 2 assists.
The best overall freshman in years was Okafor. Not only was he dominant down low, he was a very willing passer from the post. The others benefited from his game more than the others benefited from Marvins game.
Marvin should have a very productive pro career though.

Jah’s defense might have been worse than Marvin’s. He had a few really good perimeter stoppers keeping the heat off of him in the lane and Amile did most of the lane cleanup. But, I’ve always felt he was the best until Marvin came along.

 

[dukephysics]

Jah’s defense might have been worse than Marvin’s. He had a few really good perimeter stoppers keeping the heat off of him in the lane and Amile did most of the lane cleanup. But, I’ve always felt he was the best until Marvin came along.

This. I think a lot of the Bagley critics forget how bad Jah was (and still is) on defense. Loved the guy, but he was terrible on that end.

 

[Mac9192]

I never said Okafor was a defensive stopper. Stats are great and all, but to me, they don't tell the whole picture. My eyes say those around Okafor benefited more with him than those around Bagley. We also had experience to surround Jah, I realize that.
I got the vibe off watching Marvin all year that he needed to see the ball go thru the basket for him to be effective. I never got that vibe off Jah.
Bagley will be great in the pro's, Jah is proving to struggle.

I also hope Giles can continue to heal and be productive. He seems like a good kid.

 

[dukehokie]

Agree with you about Harry, pulling hard for him! His block vs UNC at one end and alley oop at the other end from Grayson is indelibly etched in my mind (ACC Tourney).

Conversely per your point about Marvin's play, I would submit to you he could have played better D, this was not "beyond his control." I would say this is especially true of zone defense, where defensive principles are traditionally easier.

OFC

Zone defenses at the collegiate level and above are actually much harder to run. The schemes, passing, and shooting are too complex and efficient to want to run zone constantly. You can run the condensed Duke version, but we push on offense too quickly to take advantage of the pace control the zone affords. Most teams play man for a reason. Marvin wasn’t great on help D, which limited our ability to play man, but a lot that of that also falls on the lack of permiter stoppage as well. Overall, the team last year was just bad on defense.

But moving on, that play against IMC typified what could have been with Harry. The guy oozes with potential of medical science has done its part. From there it’s up to him. I loved seeing his fight and determination. Now, I’d love to see his talent.

 

[IPSYCHOSIS]

The one game I watched of the Kings summer league (if I were a King fan) I’d be excited. I think they will surprise some people this year.

 

[hart2chesson]

Zone defenses at the collegiate level and above are actually much harder to run. The schemes, passing, and shooting are too complex and efficient to want to run zone constantly. You can run the condensed Duke version, but we push on offense too quickly to take advantage of the pace control the zone affords. Most teams play man for a reason. Marvin wasn’t great on help D, which limited our ability to play man, but a lot that of that also falls on the lack of permiter stoppage as well. Overall, the team last year was just bad on defense.

But moving on, that play against IMC typified what could have been with Harry. The guy oozes with potential of medical science has done its part. From there it’s up to him. I loved seeing his fight and determination. Now, I’d love to see his talent.

Agree 100% about HG-pulling hard for the kid. Hokie the thing to me about Bagley in the zone was fairly simplistic. As Grant Hill noted in the Regionals, our defense looked more like a "4-1" too often than a 2-3. Bags and Trent were both guilty of cheating out too far on the wings. Ultimately, especially vs UNC (ACC TOURNEY) and Kansas this led to wide open corner 3's which proved costly.

OFC

 

[skysdad]

Who cares about the scapegoat? Marvin has been unfairly criticized by posters all year on here, going all the way back to August when he committed to Duke. Most of the asinine reasons given on here are beyond Marvin’s control, making it even more ridiculous.

Marvin made Duke that much better, our offense was near unstoppable. And he may walk in and immediately be the Kings best player.

The thread is called Bagley/Giles. Where is the love for Harry????
Multiple summer league analysts have said Harry has been one of the biggest surprises of the summer league, think he could be a real NBA player this year (unlike Justin Jackson, lol.)
If Harry turns out to be 80% of the player he was projected to be, that’s an NBA rotation guy, maybe even a starter.

Thanks jwill. Why do we need a scapegoat. OFC

 

[Mac9192]

Marvin is going to be the best freshman we’ve ever seen at Duke and the biggest scapegoat for years to come.

Sky, ask Hokie. He's the one who brought up the scapegoat part.

 

[skysdad]

Sky, ask Hokie. He's the one who brought up the scapegoat part.

Knowing Hokie I think he meant it in a sarcastic way. I mention "who's the next transfer" from now and then and I will name just about everyone who doesn't start because I know someone is going to bring it up. For example someone may post. I watched (named player) on the bench last night and his body language told me he's not happy and will transfer. Well I"m being sarcastic when I say this and every season it seems as though we pick a player who we seem to be critical of. OFC

 

[dukehokie]

Sky, ask Hokie. He's the one who brought up the scapegoat part.

Feel free to ask me yourself. I’ll admit, it’s hard to pick up humor in text, my bad.

 

[dukehokie]

Agree 100% about HG-pulling hard for the kid. Hokie the thing to me about Bagley in the zone was fairly simplistic. As Grant Hill noted in the Regionals, our defense looked more like a "4-1" too often than a 2-3. Bags and Trent were both guilty of cheating out too far on the wings. Ultimately, especially vs UNC (ACC TOURNEY) and Kansas this led to wide open corner 3's which proved costly.

OFC

Exactly. There’s a reason Boeheim doesn’t rely on one and done talent. He’d never have time to teach his zone.

 

[dukehokie]

Knowing Hokie I think he meant it in a sarcastic way. I mention "who's the next transfer" from now and then and I will name just about everyone who doesn't start because I know someone is going to bring it up. For example someone may post. I watched (named player) on the bench last night and his body language told me he's not happy and will transfer. Well I"m being sarcastic when I say this and every season it seems as though we pick a player who we seem to be critical of. OFC

I’ve found it’s easy to tell who’s transferring by looking at the Duke Blue Planet vids. If Dave starts editing you out, you’re probably about to hit the road.

 

[Mac9192]

Exactly. There’s a reason Boeheim doesn’t rely on one and done talent. He’d never have time to teach his zone.

Good point. I guess we could also say that relying on the one and done has hurt K being able to teach the defense he has ran for decades. It will be interesting to see what defense K has the team play this season.
I know it has to eat at him.

 

[dukehokie]

Good point. I guess we could also say that relying on the one and done has hurt K being able to teach the defense he has ran for decades. It will be interesting to see what defense K has the team play this season.
I know it has to eat at him.

His man defense was at it’s peak with that 2001 team. Personnel dictated how well the defenses played in the mid 2000’s and 2010’s defense was a season that was totally different from any other team K has coached; pace and rebounding. Since then, aside from 2012 our defense hasn’t been spectacular. Man defenses have really changed the past few years and the passing lane man K used to play is no where as effective, mainly, but not solely as you pointed out, because of the OAD system. I’d love to see this particular group play a style that matches what 2010 and 2015 ran. Slow down and rely on rebounding over steals.