I'm definitely getting a little concerned and paranoid to say the least.
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I’m not really concerned about getting good players because I know Duke will, however I am curious as to why Duke is whiffing on so many top tier guys in this class.I'm definitely getting a little concerned and paranoid to say the least.
I’m not really concerned about getting good players because I know Duke will, however I am curious as to why Duke is whiffing on so many top tier guys in this class.
Hard to believe otherwise...Something serious is going on
Something serious is going on
The Capel exiting thing really confuses me as far as missing on recruits. Are they coming here to play for Capel, or K? I don't get why an assistant leaving changes a recruits mind about playing for Duke or coach K?
I think a lot of guys and their families who consider themselves to be future lottery picks have been watching/listening to the Duval's,Thornton's,Carters etc,who have complained about the way they we're used at Duke in that it did not help their status.Duke may not be the best choice for guys who want to be the main focus
True points. But where some "possible" resentment can come into play is when the staff brings in another elite kid, late too, who reclassifies, and he gets a retired jersey, announces on espn, and everyone knows he is now the focal point.when you are on a team with a bunch of other top talent, all of your strengths aren't going to be routinely displayed as other guys are getting theirs as well
duval 10ppg...allen 16ppg...trent 15ppg...carter 14ppg...bags 21ppg...they all got heavy minutes and plenty of opportunity
It's one of two ways:
Either the rest of the team agrees, and willingly becomes high end side kicks, or the staff tells Bagley, "sure we want you, but you're not getting this jersey, and we will share the ball. Who ever is hot."
Well, we have this season here with multiple one and dones.Maybe it’s time to go back to focusing on players who want to be great MULTY year players and get an outstanding education along with it. Duke has shown it can win with either philosophy
I can buy that....its either bonding as a unit or polarization....Lol, I don't seriously think we will be taking any more jerseys from the rafters anytime soon....
OFC
Maybe it’s time to go back to focusing on players who want to be great MULTY year players and get an outstanding education along with it. Duke has shown it can win with either philosophy
Plus, for the two most vocal complainers, TD and Carter, the late addition of Bags radically altered the style of play (which ultimately negated TD's strengths), or reduced the role that one got to play (Carter being sidelined).
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With only Carter on the team, the paint would have been more open. We'd have had 1 player down there, with his defender, instead of 2. Further, the switch to zone was bad for Carter and his friend Trent.
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Neither complained at the time. Had we gone to the FF, or won the title (IMO a likelihood if we win 1-2 more regular season games, greatly improving our seeding) neither would have complained since. But we under achieved last season. They were personally negatively impacted. They haven't gone out of their way to criticize Duke or K or anything. All they have done is truthfully answer questions. We just don't like the answers.
I think the issue is that we're not even getting the attention of our top recruits, and that hasn't happened in a very long time. Guys not scheduling an official, or not showing up for one, when it's clear we'll have at least 3, and maybe even 4, starting positions open.I don't get why so many are saying if we don't get this guy or that guy that we might take a hit. Maybe so, but other than Kentucky, who else has been taking multiple one and done players?
Look at Gonzaga. Sure they haven't won a title, but they have been a strong program for quite a while, and could have won the title in 17. Few is doing an outstanding job out there, and folks better keep an eye out on them this season. They appear to be loaded.
Is it possible that K can do at least as good as them? I would like to think so.
Some think we are settling if we don't get a Stewart or Anthony, or whoever.
There's a lot of kids that play basketball, everyone we get doesn't have to be elite.
I don't get why so many are saying if we don't get this guy or that guy that we might take a hit. Maybe so, but other than Kentucky, who else has been taking multiple one and done players?
Look at Gonzaga. Sure they haven't won a title, but they have been a strong program for quite a while, and could have won the title in 17. Few is doing an outstanding job out there, and folks better keep an eye out on them this season. They appear to be loaded.
Is it possible that K can do at least as good as them? I would like to think so.
Some think we are settling if we don't get a Stewart or Anthony, or whoever.
There's a lot of kids that play basketball, everyone we get doesn't have to be elite.
I think the issue is that we're not even getting the attention of our top recruits, and that hasn't happened in a very long time. Guys not scheduling an official, or not showing up for one, when it's clear we'll have at least 3, and maybe even 4, starting positions open.
My guess is that the recent surge in complaints from players and their families is finally taking its toll on recruiting, especially w/o Capel. And regardless of what the pumpers say, the last 3 years have been pretty disappointing on the court relative to the talent on hand.
Next year's team, as is, would be fine. Just fine. ONLY fine. Best case scenario, with no top tier additions, would be Tre, AOC, Baker, White, Javin, and Bolden as the core. Robinson and Goldwire as solid backups.
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That is a top 25 team, but not a top 10 team. We'd have no real chance to win the ACC, either regular season or the ACCT. We'd be at top 3-5 seed in our bracket of the NCAAT. But I don't think that team is a legit FF threat. By most evaluations, that is a solid team and a quality season. We'd consider such a season to be an abject failure, and a complete misery to watch.
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That is why we are worried.
So what we're saying is our 4 star players aren't as good as other teams 4 stars? That other programs kids develop better? See, I don't buy this. We are Duke, not West Alabama Tech. We should be able to get kids in here that are talented, and combined with the experience, should be contenders most years. We shouldn't have to be so reliant on 4 freshmen to contend.Next year's team, as is, would be fine. Just fine. ONLY fine. Best case scenario, with no top tier additions, would be Tre, AOC, Baker, White, Javin, and Bolden as the core. Robinson and Goldwire as solid backups.
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That is a top 25 team, but not a top 10 team. We'd have no real chance to win the ACC, either regular season or the ACCT. We'd be at top 3-5 seed in our bracket of the NCAAT. But I don't think that team is a legit FF threat. By most evaluations, that is a solid team and a quality season. We'd consider such a season to be an abject failure, and a complete misery to watch.
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That is why we are worried.
UVA, Villanova, and Kansas have been doing OK w/o 4 OAD's, so why can't we?So what we're saying is our 4 star players aren't as good as other teams 4 stars? That other programs kids develop better? See, I don't buy this. We are Duke, not West Alabama Tech. We should be able to get kids in here that are talented, and combined with the experience, should be contenders most years. We shouldn't have to be so reliant on 4 freshmen to contend.
My point is, we shouldn't have to have a certain kid, if the others work on their games. If not, then K and the staff should evaluate their ability to evaluate.
See, there's the rub. "great multi-year" How realistic is that?
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If by great, you mean that they spend 3+ years and have great careers in retrospect, then fine. But there will be some lean years (by our standards) as that happens.
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If you want guys that are very good (but really, great) immediately, who also stay in college for 3+ years, then you are delusional. There aren't many Shane Battiers or Tyler Hanstravels out there. We'd love to get guys that are frosh all-conf, and regular all conf for the next 2 years after that. But you can't count on building such teams.
Yes that’s what I mean. Great in retrospect. I understand there may be some lean years mixed in by Duke standard but I can live with that. Miles Plumlee, Kyle Singler, Nolan Smith, Amile Jefferson, Lance Thomas, Q Cook, Grayson Allen, Mason Plumlee, Andre Dawkins (if not for the tragedy would’ve been even a bigger impact), JJ Redick, Sheldon Williams etc etc etc
Now granted some of the aforementioned maybe leave early in current times but to me that’s ok. I think recently both Villanova and dare I say even UNC, have shown you can bring home a championship with guys who are very good but not considered lottery type talents and of course guys that would appreciate a top education.
I think it’s a blessing that Duke can adapt and thrive in either direction.
This. I'm all for developing guys and keeping them around mulitple years, but if you want things to go back to the "good old days" for Duke basketball, then we need to figure out a way to land 5 star guys AND keep them around multiple years. We will be returning a bunch of lower tiered recruits.Every player on your list except Miles Plumlee and Andre Dawkins (who re-classed) was a Parade and/or McDonald's All-American in high school. These weren't Alex O'Connell/Jack White-level recruits. Many were ranked in the general Antoine/James level recruit that Duke is missing so far this class. Some were ranked much higher.
It's possible for a top recruit to stick around for four years when the NBA beckons. Happened with Grayson Allen. But it's certainly nothing to be counted on.
I think it's way too early to write off this class. But I also think it's disingenuous for posters to suggest that top talents in this class would not be able to start ahead of some of the incumbents Duke will return for 2020.
Duke is off to a slow recruiting start. Plenty of time and opportunity to turn it around. But I don't think we can deny that it needs to be turned around.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jon-scheyer-1.htmlMason Plumlee, Nolan Smith, Jon Scheyer, Grayson, and a few others may have been 5 stars coming out of high school, but they didn't play like one their first season, and some until late in their careers. Singler had good stats his freshman season, but hustle separated him from a lot of guys. Maybe he would only play one season in today's time, who knows.
A guy on the premium site asked about Anthony Harris, the 4 star from Virginia, being a serviceable backup. We are spoiled as a fan base when a question like that is asked.
Our fan base would scoff at a kid like Scheyer wanting to be a one and done. That's more what I'm talking about. Jon wanted to come to Duke, and he wasn't a 4 year starter. The 5 stars now have a different mindset.https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jon-scheyer-1.html
12.2 PPG, 3.3 reb, 1.2 assists, and 1.2 steals Scheyers' freshman year. Looks like the numbers of a lower-tiered 5 star guy to me.
Sure, he didn't set the world on fire, but we haven't had a freshman put up those kind of numbers and come back.....since Kyle Singler.
So what we're saying is our 4 star players aren't as good as other teams 4 stars? That other programs kids develop better? See, I don't buy this. We are Duke, not West Alabama Tech. We should be able to get kids in here that are talented, and combined with the experience, should be contenders most years. We shouldn't have to be so reliant on 4 freshmen to contend.
My point is, we shouldn't have to have a certain kid, if the others work on their games. If not, then K and the staff should evaluate their ability to evaluate.
I think people are mis-remembering Jon Scheyer's career arc a bit. As a freshman in 2007 he was second on the team in minutes played--behind Josh McRoberts but ahead of DeMarcus Nelson-and averaged 12.2 ppg.
As a sophomore he was the nominal sixth-man but played more minutes than starter Gerald Henderson and averaged 11.7 ppg. He was third on that team in minutes played, 11 minutes behind Singler.
He moved to point guard midway through his junior year and led Duke to the ACC Tournament title, winning the Everett Case Award as the tournament's outstanding player.
As a senior, he was the best player on an NCAA title team.
He got better, sure. But he was an impact player from day one.
Nolan Smith might be more of what people are looking for. A top-20 recruit, he averaged a modest 5.9 ppg as a freshman and became ACC POY and consensus first-team All-American as a senior.
Again, I think it's way too early to assume that Duke isn't going to get those kinds of players in this class. But if they don't, a team led by DeLaurier, O'Connell, Baker and White looks like a gap year to me.
Let me ask a legitimate question, w/the following preface:The last couple of years are bound to have taken a toll on K. After all we did lose 17 games, didnt make the FF despite great expectations, and then this year's offseason of whining by players and/or parents wouldnt help anyone's stress level, especially at 71.
If he does foresee as you say, a possible "gap year," could you see him more likely to step down??? Also, how much of a role does Micki's input at home play in such a decision.
OFC
I figured he'd go till 75,coach likes a challenge,so he may like to see what he can do with a group of upper classmen mixed with a couple 4-5 stars.I'd be interested to see myself.