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^That post got exactly the response it deserved.


^This post deserves better. It addresses actual policy as opposed to using inflammatory, fear-mongering tactics.
Look at Portland, San Fran and Philadelphia as examples. It's not fear mongering. It's actually happening.

^That post got exactly the response it deserved.



Does the drug court program you reference mean users don't go to jail? I'd like to see addiction categorized as a mental health crisis to the point that it's not even related to court. I would like for distribution of certain drugs of certain quantities to remain criminalized.
It is a program that you have to qualify for. You can't have already been a part of the program, first time offense and no distribution charges to name a few of the disqualifiers. It gives people who have been arrested an opportunity to get treatment and stay clean for a year (in most cases) and if they finish the program without mishaps, their charges will be expunged from their records so they won't have that embarrassment when applying for jobs or what not. Most people, once open to treatment, carry it over and straighten up. Treatment works best when not using, so being legally obligated to stay clean helps. Counseling is also offered and they are more likely to seek counseling once accustomed to it. Again, this works best while not using. Giving people a safe place to use hard drugs is not empathetic. It is evil. Giving them a chance to move on from their mistakes while still holding them accountable is real empathy, IMO.

Since we're talking about NY where marijuana is legal and you and I both live in NC, which remains one of 11 states that doesn't even allow medical marijuana, I have to ask: What do you think about the legal status of marijuana and what would you like to see in NC?
Locally speaking, Marijuana is practically legal. I cannot tell you the last court case I saw that involved the use of marijuana. That said, it is still technically illegal. I think it is a waste of time and resources for it to be illegal, especially seeing how it destroys practically no lives compared to alcohol, which is legal and destroys so many lives. But I don't really care, TBH.
 
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Hahahaha! You're hilarious. You know it's both.

And for people in government who actually control the system to watch prison populations soar and economic disparity widen but focus instead on personal responsibility is just crazy.
To watch prison populations soar.
Somebody forgot to spread da word to these guys. Which guys? Oh, just the ones who research this sort of stuff.

 
To watch prison populations soar.
Somebody forgot to spread da word to these guys. Which guys? Oh, just the ones who research this sort of stuff.

Oooh! Let’s quote your article!
Make no mistake: mass incarceration and the racial and economic disparities it drives continue to shape America for the worse.”
But sure, there’ve been improvements.
 
Oooh! Let’s quote your article!
Make no mistake: mass incarceration and the racial and economic disparities it drives continue to shape America for the worse.”
But sure, there’ve been improvements.
Sure have. The link no doubt supports arguments you’ve made in the past but refutes the comment made in the post that I actually responded to today.
Even so, I figured you could use a pick me up after the shellacking Ghost and Mac have been giving you lately. ✌️
 
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Look at Portland, San Fran and Philadelphia as examples. It's not fear mongering. It's actually happening.


It is a program that you have to qualify for. You can't have already been a part of the program, first time offense and no distribution charges to name a few of the disqualifiers. It gives people who have been arrested an opportunity to get treatment and stay clean for a year (in most cases) and if they finish the program without mishaps, their charges will be expunged from their records so they won't have that embarrassment when applying for jobs or what not. Most people, once open to treatment, carry it over and straighten up. Treatment works best when not using, so being legally obligated to stay clean helps. Counseling is also offered and they are more likely to seek counseling once accustomed to it. Again, this works best while not using. Giving people a safe place to use hard drugs is not empathetic. It is evil. Giving them a chance to move on from their mistakes while still holding them accountable is real empathy, IMO.


Locally speaking, Marijuana is practically legal. I cannot tell you the last court case I saw that involved the use of marijuana. That said, it is still technically illegal. I think it is a waste of time and resources for it to be illegal, especially seeing how it destroys practically no lives compared to alcohol, which is legal and destroys so many lives. But I don't really care, TBH.
It's hyperbole, and framing it as what anyone wants is immature.

Sounds like a positive program. Over time, I would like to see it continue to evolve away from law enforcement. I don't know what you're referring to as "giving people a safe place to use hard drugs." It sounds like a distortion of the plausible if debatable idea that going cold turkey can kill people so weening them off drugs may be safer, as if ongoing use is the end goal.

Recreational marijuana would be a good revenue source for NC, and as you said, it destroys practically no lives compared to alcohol.
 
Sure have. The link no doubt supports arguments you’ve made in the past but refutes the comment made in the post that I actually responded to today.
Even so, I figured you could use a pick me up after the shellacking Ghost and Mac have been giving you lately. ✌️
Ya know, the ol boy did a better job lately in regards to Israel and Iran. But his life in education (becoming institutionalized) just makes him almost unbearable on social and some political issues. He needs to be slightly shocked when bad Datt shows up. Kind of like Cliff in the old show Cheers. He wore some contraption that would shock him if he said his usual idiotic remarks.

I'm afraid though if @Dattier wore something like that, he'd sound like a bug zapper.
 
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Even so, I figured you could use a pick me up after the shellacking Ghost and Mac have been giving you lately. ✌️
I don't recall having interacted with @Mac9192 at all recently other than to express similar concern about where the bombing of Iran leads us. I haven't been particularly combative with @GhostOf301 in the last week or so, either.
Of course, nothing says "echo chamber" like all the conservatives here patting each other on the back about the "shellacking" they just served some lib.

Y'all remind me of Ira & Barry...
 
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Ya know, the ol boy did a better job lately in regards to Israel and Iran. But his life in education (becoming institutionalized) just makes him almost unbearable on social and some political issues. He needs to be slightly shocked when bad Datt shows up. Kind of like Cliff in the old show Cheers. He wore some contraption that would shock him if he said his usual idiotic remarks.

I'm afraid though if @Dattier wore something like that, he'd sound like a bug zapper.
Awwww! How long have you been working on that line? It's adorable.
 
Dems in NYC have voted for a mayoral candidate who founded a chapter of the SJP. This group has been banned from college campuses across the country for violence, harassment of “Zionists” code: Jews, and other dastardly deeds Well, that’s just the Jews’ problem, right?
Not exactly. They’ve also supported Houti’s attacks on the US and aspire “to eradicate America as we know it”.

Americans actually voted for this maniac.

 
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It's hyperbole, and framing it as what anyone wants is immature.

Sounds like a positive program. Over time, I would like to see it continue to evolve away from law enforcement. I don't know what you're referring to as "giving people a safe place to use hard drugs." It sounds like a distortion of the plausible if debatable idea that going cold turkey can kill people so weening them off drugs may be safer, as if ongoing use is the end goal.

Recreational marijuana would be a good revenue source for NC, and as you said, it destroys practically no lives compared to alcohol.
destroys practically no lives compared to alcohol.
That’s the perception, but is it reality?

 
destroys practically no lives compared to alcohol.
That’s the perception, but is it reality?
Ask @GhostOf301 . I was repeating his language. I even double-checked to make sure I repeated it accurately because, silly me, I thought that would mean we wouldn't get sidetracked by it by someone who... how would you put it, @Mac9192 ? Someone who deflects because he can't argue the actual point? (Don't worry, @KDSTONE , I got your back against mac on this one; I don't think you would ever do that intentionally.)

So... back to Zohran Mamdani?
 
destroys practically no lives compared to alcohol.
That’s the perception, but is it reality?

Offering safe injection sites and trying to wean people off drugs are two policy goals that aren’t necessarily intersecting but can be. In far Left areas, I hear about the former but not the latter. That’s why it’s seen as enabling by many in the substance abuse field. The longer you use a drug, the higher the dosage, the harder it is to quit, and the less likely for recovery. They either OD or reach the “point of no return”, that point in an addict’s life where recovery becomes likely out of reach.
 
destroys practically no lives compared to alcohol.
That’s the perception, but is it reality?

I can't wrap my head around someone being addicted to marijuana. Perhaps that's a real thing, IDK. Either way. I am sure there are links to marijuana related deaths via car accidents, but I can't really imagine how, outside of that. Maybe lung cancer? I know I said 'lives destroyed' and that's not necessarily synonyms with lives lost, but regardless, there is no way to deny the fact that marijuana has very very little negative impacts compared to alcohol. The overall point was about the legalization of marijuana and an argument for why it would be logical to wonder why it illegal while a far worse substance isn't.
 
Just letting Grok answer for me. Not a habit, just out of curiosity

Marijuana Addiction: Yes, it’s real, though less severe than alcohol dependence. About 9% of regular marijuana users develop cannabis use disorder, per DSM-5 criteria, marked by cravings, tolerance, and withdrawal (irritability, insomnia). It’s not as debilitating as alcohol addiction, which affects 15% of users and often leads to physical dependence, but heavy marijuana use can disrupt life—think job loss, strained relationships, or cognitive fog. You’re skeptical, which is fair; it’s milder and less visible than, say, opioid or alcohol addiction.

Marijuana-Related Deaths: Direct deaths are rare. No recorded overdoses exist because marijuana doesn’t suppress vital functions like breathing. Car accidents are a concern: THC impairs reaction time and coordination, and studies estimate 5-10% of fatal crashes involve cannabis (though often alongside alcohol, muddying causation). NHTSA data suggests marijuana-related crash risk is lower than alcohol’s (2-3x increased risk vs. 10-20x for alcohol at high BAC). Lung cancer is possible from smoking marijuana, but evidence is weaker than for tobacco—partly because users smoke less volume and edibles/vaping exist. Long-term, heavy smoking may increase bronchitis or lung irritation, but no clear mortality link like alcohol’s liver disease or cancer (30% of liver cancer tied to alcohol).

Lives Destroyed vs. Lives Lost: Alcohol’s broader impact—violence (30% of homicides), domestic abuse, sexual assault (50% of cases), workplace losses ($100 billion annually)—dwarfs marijuana’s. Marijuana’s “destruction” is subtler: chronic use can lead to amotivation, memory issues, or mental health exacerbation (e.g., 1-2% of users develop psychosis, per 2020 studies). But these pale next to alcohol’s $250 billion economic hit vs. marijuana’s $12 billion.
 
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I can't wrap my head around someone being addicted to marijuana. Perhaps that's a real thing, IDK. Either way. I am sure there are links to marijuana related deaths via car accidents, but I can't really imagine how, outside of that. Maybe lung cancer? I know I said 'lives destroyed' and that's not necessarily synonyms with lives lost, but regardless, there is no way to deny the fact that marijuana has very very little negative impacts compared to alcohol. The overall point was about the legalization of marijuana and an argument for why it would be logical to wonder why it illegal while a far worse substance isn't.
Anything that helps you relax and intoxicates is likely to be addictive for some.
Alcohol is def worse, but given weed has only recently been legalized, there’s little we know about its long term physical and mental health effects. It triggers schizophrenic episodes in a small but growing number of users. It’s primarily a psych addiction whereas alcohol is physical and psych but chronic weed users can go through major withdrawals such as high irritability and panic attacks. Alcohol is def worse for the heart and liver, weed for the lungs if you smoke.This is anecdotal but my nephew is an ER doc and he told me a while back that he sees a surprising number of patients with pot fueled episodes, either manic or poisoning type issues. Allergic reactions, car accidents, hallucinations. As we all know, the THC % is way higher now than it was decades ago
 
Just letting Grok answer for me. Not a habit, just out of curiosity

Marijuana Addiction: Yes, it’s real, though less severe than alcohol dependence. About 9% of regular marijuana users develop cannabis use disorder, per DSM-5 criteria, marked by cravings, tolerance, and withdrawal (irritability, insomnia). It’s not as debilitating as alcohol addiction, which affects 15% of users and often leads to physical dependence, but heavy marijuana use can disrupt life—think job loss, strained relationships, or cognitive fog. You’re skeptical, which is fair; it’s milder and less visible than, say, opioid or alcohol addiction.

Marijuana-Related Deaths: Direct deaths are rare. No recorded overdoses exist because marijuana doesn’t suppress vital functions like breathing. Car accidents are a concern: THC impairs reaction time and coordination, and studies estimate 5-10% of fatal crashes involve cannabis (though often alongside alcohol, muddying causation). NHTSA data suggests marijuana-related crash risk is lower than alcohol’s (2-3x increased risk vs. 10-20x for alcohol at high BAC). Lung cancer is possible from smoking marijuana, but evidence is weaker than for tobacco—partly because users smoke less volume and edibles/vaping exist. Long-term, heavy smoking may increase bronchitis or lung irritation, but no clear mortality link like alcohol’s liver disease or cancer (30% of liver cancer tied to alcohol).

Lives Destroyed vs. Lives Lost: Alcohol’s broader impact—violence (30% of homicides), domestic abuse, sexual assault (50% of cases), workplace losses ($100 billion annually)—dwarfs marijuana’s. Marijuana’s “destruction” is subtler: chronic use can lead to amotivation, memory issues, or mental health exacerbation (e.g., 1-2% of users develop psychosis, per 2020 studies). But these pale next to alcohol’s $250 billion economic hit vs. marijuana’s $12 billion.
That’s about what I figured overall, but one thing I’d counter the study with is the difference in perception. If you’re addicted to meth or an alcoholic, most personal/ professional issues would be immediately tied to those addictions.
With weed, since so many see it as harmless, other causes may be looked at prior to heavy pot use being identified as the culprit. You mentioned that pot addiction is more subtle than other addictions, so I guess I’m repeating one of your points to some extent.
 
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Sounds like a positive program. Over time, I would like to see it continue to evolve away from law enforcement. I don't know what you're referring to as "giving people a safe place to use hard drugs." It sounds like a distortion of the plausible if debatable idea that going cold turkey can kill people so weening them off drugs may be safer, as if ongoing use is the end goal.
I disagree with letting it evolve away from law enforcement. Drugs are and should be illegal. I gave my opinion earlier on how important it is for people to be held accountable at the same time as being given a way out that doesn't carry a stigma for the rest of their lives. If drugs were legal and there was no legal pressure to be clean, there would be no incentive for addicts, or people headed down that path, to refrain from using. If someone dies from quitting cold turkey, they would be in the category that @KDSTONE labeled "too far gone". And the policy of safe spaces would only increase those numbers. Treatment centers treat severe withdrawal symptoms. It's so important not to encourage drug use. You never know what dose will be the last. The idea in these safe places is that someone will be there if there is an OD, but the best way to prevent on overdose is for there to be no dose at all.

I see people every day who struggle with addiction. There is nothing more rewarding than seeing someone overcome their addiction. I only wish my sister would have encountered law enforcement before she became too far gone.
 
I disagree with letting it evolve away from law enforcement. Drugs are and should be illegal. I gave my opinion earlier on how important it is for people to be held accountable at the same time as being given a way out that doesn't carry a stigma for the rest of their lives. If drugs were legal and there was no legal pressure to be clean, there would be no incentive for addicts, or people headed down that path, to refrain from using. If someone dies from quitting cold turkey, they would be in the category that @KDSTONE labeled "too far gone". And the policy of safe spaces would only increase those numbers. Treatment centers treat severe withdrawal symptoms. It's so important not to encourage drug use. You never know what dose will be the last. The idea in these safe places is that someone will be there if there is an OD, but the best way to prevent on overdose is for there to be no dose at all.

I see people every day who struggle with addiction. There is nothing more rewarding than seeing someone overcome their addiction. I only wish my sister would have encountered law enforcement before she became too far gone.
One of the drawbacks of these harm reduction sites is that it assumes the user only consumes their drug of choice at the site. Many skeptics claim that the user still engages in risky behavior (dirty needles, potential of fentanyl laced drugs, etc) in addition to their use at the “safe” site.
It’d be like giving an alcoholic who normally drinks a gallon of liquor a day a pint a day and expecting them not to drink more when they’re on their own to reach their desired level. I’m making the assumption that users have a daily limit they can consume at the safe site in order to avoid the possibility of OD’s.

On the other hand, if someone wants to quit it might help them lower their daily amount until they can get into a rehab and get medical assistance for their withdrawals.
I’m not sure where I stand on pot legalization, I’d have to dig into it a little more. If liquor is legal, it def makes sense that pot would be I agree. Def opposed to legalizing hard drugs though.
 
Offering safe injection sites and trying to wean people off drugs are two policy goals that aren’t necessarily intersecting but can be. In far Left areas, I hear about the former but not the latter. That’s why it’s seen as enabling by many in the substance abuse field. The longer you use a drug, the higher the dosage, the harder it is to quit, and the less likely for recovery. They either OD or reach the “point of no return”, that point in an addict’s life where recovery becomes likely out of reach.
This ^
My son is a paramedic in a small town and runs an OD about once a month. There’s four trucks on his shift and they have three different shifts. Do the math, that’s a lot of calls. So we’re going to give addicts safe injection sites and that’s going to help the problem. People are dying everyday from drugs, it’s sad that we have people voting for this.
 
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This ^
My son is a paramedic in a small town and runs an OD about once a month. There’s four trucks on his shift and they have three different shifts. Do the math, that’s a lot of calls. So we’re going to give addicts safe injection sites and that’s going to help the problem. People are dying everyday from drugs, it’s sad that we have people voting for this.
For some reason, preventing HIV/ Hep transmission at safe sites and trying to help people wean off drugs is seen as an either/or proposition. I’ve always heard that you have to hit rock bottom before you can quit or at least are willing to try. If all legal consequences are removed for hard drug use, the amount consumed is controlled, and the stigma associated with usage is gone; all of this prevents the rock bottom scenario necessary for recovery. It’s enabling behavior.
If their mother or sign other provided them with these same conditions, they would be lambasted. One plus though about the safe sites is the presumed absence of fentanyl or at least the street level version.
 
For some reason, preventing HIV/ Hep transmission at safe sites and trying to help people wean off drugs is seen as an either/or proposition. I’ve always heard that you have to hit rock bottom before you can quit or at least are willing to try. If all legal consequences are removed for hard drug use, the amount consumed is controlled, and the stigma associated with usage is gone; all of this prevents the rock bottom scenario necessary for recovery. It’s enabling behavior.
If their mother or sign other provided them with these same conditions, they would be lambasted. One plus though about the safe sites is the presumed absence of fentanyl or at least the street level version.
I liked how you worded your last sentence with the word “presumed.”
There’s been talks about making narcan over the counter, so that if a person OD’s then it’s close by and they don’t have to wait for an EMT. It seems like just another tactic to make an addict think they can continue to use more and won’t have to worry about the consequence of dying.
 
I liked how you worded your last sentence with the word “presumed.”
There’s been talks about making narcan over the counter, so that if a person OD’s then it’s close by and they don’t have to wait for an EMT. It seems like just another tactic to make an addict think they can continue to use more and won’t have to worry about the consequence of dying.
This isn't exactly related to what you and KD are talking about, but If anyone hasn't seen the movie Body Brokers, I'd highly recommend it. Fact based about drug rehab centers. A sad, sad story, where MILLIONS of dollars are made.
 
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This isn't exactly related to what you and KD are talking about, but If anyone hasn't seen the movie Body Brokers, I'd highly recommend it. Fact based about drug rehab centers. A sad, sad story, where MILLIONS of dollars are made.
This isn't at all what any of the 3 of y'all are talking about, but it strikes me as odd that massive amounts of money being made can be such a source of suspicion for y'all, yet you won't even consider something if it's labeled "communist" or "socialist."
 
What's the pitch for safe use spaces? They seem to be gaining momentum.
Clean needles for HIV/ hep prevention, od prevention, resource referrals for counseling, housing, legal services, fentanyl free drugs.

Could be wrong, but the guiding philosophy seems to be they’re going to use anyway, let’s make it as safe as possible and get them the help they need, an alternative to the traditional Rehab/ 12 Step focus on abstinence. Both models seem to make addressing underlying mental/ emotional issues a priority
 
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I liked how you worded your last sentence with the word “presumed.”
There’s been talks about making narcan over the counter, so that if a person OD’s then it’s close by and they don’t have to wait for an EMT. It seems like just another tactic to make an addict think they can continue to use more and won’t have to worry about the consequence of dying.
Good point. I smoked a little weed in college, but one reason I turned down hard shit was the fear of OD’ing. It seems some might be more willing to experiment and risk getting hooked if you sell Narcan over the counter. So the removal of a deterrent for continued use and first time use in one fell swoop as they are emboldened to use increasing quantities of the drug making recovery down the road even more daunting
 
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Good point. I smoked a little weed in college, but one reason I turned down hard shit was the fear of OD’ing.
"a little weed in college" is the new "but I didn't inhale" ;)

2 words for why I never got anywhere near narcotics: Len. Bias. It was the summer before I started high school and the story at the time was that he tried it for the first time and died almost instantly. I figured if it could take out the greatest athlete I'd ever seen in my life to that point, I wasn't touching it. I've run into so many people over the years within a year or two of my age that have the same story.

Clean needles for HIV/ hep prevention, od prevention, resource referrals for counseling, housing, legal services, fentanyl free drugs.

Could be wrong, but the guiding philosophy seems to be they’re going to use anyway, let’s make it as safe as possible and get them the help they need, an alternative to the traditional Rehab/ 12 Step focus on abstinence. Both models seem to make addressing underlying mental/ emotional issues a priority
It sounds like there's respectable and humane rationale for them, and that the objections here are about whether they work in practice.
 
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"a little weed in college" is the new "but I didn't inhale" ;)

2 words for why I never got anywhere near narcotics: Len. Bias. It was the summer before I started high school and the story at the time was that he tried it for the first time and died almost instantly. I figured if it could take out the greatest athlete I'd ever seen in my life to that point, I wasn't touching it. I've run into so many people over the years within a year or two of my age that have the same story.


It sounds like there's respectable and humane rationale for them, and that the objections here are about whether they work in practice.
I was in eighth grade when Bias died. That left a mark on me as well.

Fair assessment. My understanding is the sites help reduce disease transmission and with connecting users to some semblance of a support network. Whether they help many get in recovery is less clear. To be fair, that’s not necessarily the goal of many sites, which is probably the most frequent criticism.
 
This isn't at all what any of the 3 of y'all are talking about, but it strikes me as odd that massive amounts of money being made can be such a source of suspicion for y'all, yet you won't even consider something if it's labeled "communist" or "socialist."
No idea what you're trying to prove. I never said drug rehabs do or don't work. Just merely a comment made where in many instances, there are scams pulled, so large amounts of money can be made by the rehab. And before you start, I've seen it done.

This is just another example though of you being the normal condescending, smug, dismissive hack we've come to know.
 
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No idea what you're trying to prove. I never said drug rehabs do or don't work. Just merely a comment made where in many instances, there are scams pulled, so large amounts of money can be made by the rehab. And before you start, I've seen it done.

This is just another example though of you being the normal condescending, smug, dismissive hack we've come to know.
I’m not sure why some of you engage with Dat. I put him on ignore, I just couldn’t stand his “better than thou” attitude. First poster I’ve ever done that with.
 
No idea what you're trying to prove. I never said drug rehabs do or don't work. Just merely a comment made where in many instances, there are scams pulled, so large amounts of money can be made by the rehab. And before you start, I've seen it done.

This is just another example though of you being the normal condescending, smug, dismissive hack we've come to know.
Geez! You are so on edge. It was a sincere question/observation. You appear to be critical of something because there’s a lot of money in it, but you won’t even consider something if it has “socialism” tied to it.

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. I’m either a good guy congratulating you on your daughter’s graduation or the Devil. 🙄
 
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I was in eighth grade when Bias died. That left a mark on me as well.

Fair assessment. My understanding is the sites help reduce disease transmission and with connecting users to some semblance of a support network. Whether they help many get in recovery is less clear. To be fair, that’s not necessarily the goal of many sites, which is probably the most frequent criticism.
We must be the same age! 53? Hs c/o ‘90?

I can understand a site having a narrow focus, but then they ought to network with other places for the next step. So one place could do the clean needle/ OD monitoring “safe use” step, but then they guide addicts to the next service that helps them with recovery.

We get it wrong when we think being loving and humane means coddling AND when we think being firm means being cruel.
 
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