Top 5 freshmen seasons ever at Duke

[crazyduke3]

Alright let's go ahead and address this toughie here and now, we got a long time to go till CTC.

This will not be easy and I do not claim to be the most knowledgeable Duke fan ever, so OFC, get in here and help me out, what was Heyman like his first year, Giminski and Dick Groat as well.



5. Tyus Jones

4. Grant Hill

3. Jahlil Okafor

2. Loul Deng

1. Jabari Parker



That's my list. Some may argue about Jabari, because he wasn't a NC. But, I think he played on a bad team, out of position and made them FAR better than they had business being. And if you remember, that kid basically played 36 minutes at minimum, at center and was just a freaking force. He rebounded better than freaking Jahlil.....

why couldn't you have come back for one more year Jabari!!!!!!

What's your top five, and no "no order" garbage be a man and put them in order!!!

 

[Heyman25]

5 - Grant Hill Most everybody on this board knows what he did
4 - Jabari Parker He did the best he could do under the situation
3 - Jahlil Okafor ACC Player of the Year as a freshman
2 - Johnny Dawkins K's first big time recruit who led the Duke turnaround
1 - Art Heyman My main man, over 25 points a game and 10 rebounds in his first varsity year OFC

 

[uwgbluedevil]

Based on players I got to watch:
1) Jabari Parker
2) Jahlil Okafor
3) Luol Deng
4) JJ Redick
5) Toss Up: Jay Williams/Tyus Jones

 

[DukeDyNasty22]

5) Kyrie Irving: Only 11 games, but wow what a player he was on that team! Sweet 16 to Zona what that team could have been with more time played together....
4) Jabari Parker: played out of position but was unbelievable, really was a star dynamic scorer. First round exit
3) Jason Williams: played with a swagger and nearly unguardable crossover with a sick jumper to finish.
2) Luol Deng: Crossover to put McCants on his ass in that 2003-2004 season, man I get chills watching him destroy that unc team. Beast mode player Final four loss to uconn
1)Jahlil "Big Jah" Okafor: A man amongst boys! And the only freshman out of my list to win the whole thing his first year! Acc player of the year 2015 National champs

 

[skysdad]

Alright let's go ahead and address this toughie here and now, we got a long time to go till CTC.

This will not be easy and I do not claim to be the most knowledgeable Duke fan ever, so OFC, get in here and help me out, what was Heyman like his first year, Giminski and Dick Groat as well.



5. Tyus Jones

4. Grant Hill

3. Jahlil Okafor

2. Loul Deng

1. Jabari Parker



That's my list. Some may argue about Jabari, because he wasn't a NC. But, I think he played on a bad team, out of position and made them FAR better than they had business being. And if you remember, that kid basically played 36 minutes at minimum, at center and was just a freaking force. He rebounded better than freaking Jahlil.....

why couldn't you have come back for one more year Jabari!!!!!!

What's your top five, and no "no order" garbage be a man and put them in order!!!

Crazy that's a pretty dog gone good list. All of them are pretty good. OFC

 

[crazyduke3]

I know Kyrie would have earned a place on the top 5 for sure, but of just 11 games out of 35, I can't put him on here.

Sky, dangit, give us your top 5.

 

[OldasdirtDevil]

This is tough...I mean really tough...almost impossibly tough without spending much time and thought to it. If I answered this question next week (after thinking about it I might have some changes)...but here goes.

5. Gene Banks
4. Jahlil Okafor
3. Mike Gminski
2. Johnny Dawkins
1. Art Heyman (I agree with Heyman25 on this one)

So many other deserving players, such as: Luol Deng, Jabari Parker, Jason Williams, Grant Hill, Kyrie Irving (only the lack of games keeps him from being on the list IMO), Tyus Jones, etc.

OFC

 

[Dattier]

Freshmen weren't eligible during Heyman's time, so he technically didn't play (varsity) until his soph year.

5. Luol
4. Tyus
3. JD
2. Jabari
1. Jahlil

HM: CDu, Justise, Maggette, Austin

Edit: I switched Jahlil to first ahead of Jabari. They were both 1st team AA, but on second thought, the national championship and ACC PoY award tips it to big Jah for me.

 

[Heyman25]

Freshmen weren't eligible during Heyman's time, so he technically didn't play (varsity) until his soph year.

5. Luol
4. Tyus
3. JD
2. Jahlil
1. Jabari

HM: CDu, Justise, Maggette, Austin

That is why I stated in his first varisty year. On the freshman team he averaged something like 35 points and 12 rebounds. OFC

 

[skysdad]

This is tough...I mean really tough...almost impossibly tough without spending much time and thought to it. If I answered this question next week (after thinking about it I might have some changes)...but here goes.

5. Gene Banks
4. Jahlil Okafor
3. Mike Gminski
2. Johnny Dawkins
1. Art Heyman (I agree with Heyman25 on this one)

So many other deserving players, such as: Luol Deng, Jabari Parker, Jason Williams, Grant Hill, Kyrie Irving (only the lack of games keeps him from being on the list IMO), Tyus Jones, etc.

OFC

Really love your list dirt. The old guys are being forgotten quickly. Imagine Art Heyman as a freshman as we know them now. OFC

 

[topps coach]

Really love your list dirt. The old guys are being forgotten quickly. Imagine Art Heyman as a freshman as we know them now. OFC

 

[OldasdirtDevil]

Yep, it's easy to forget the greats of yesteryear, Sky. And Heyman would be a stud nowadays also. In the days when most players were tough as nails...he was a hammer.

OFC

 

[aah555]

(1) Okafor
(2) Parker
(3) JDawkins
(4) Deng
(5) JWill

Okafor / Parker may be the most recent, but I do genuinely believe that those 2 + Grant Hill are the most gifted players who've ever played here IMO. Irving would be in the running on talent, but he only ended up playing 1/3rd of a freshman season.

 

[skysdad]

(1) Okafor
(2) Parker
(3) JDawkins
(4) Deng
(5) JWill

Was Art Heyman even eligible to play as a freshman?

Okafor / Parker maybe the most recent, but I do genuinely believe that those 2 + Grant Hill are the most gifted players who've ever played here IMO. Irving would be in the running on talent, but he only ended up playing 1/3rd of a freshman season.

No Art Heyman wasn't eligible to play as a freshman. Heyman25 was just trying to acknowledge what he did do on the freshman team that year. Art Heyman was a great, great collegiate basketball player and just because he was born in the 1940's doesn't mean he couldn't play the game today . If he were born in 1996 or 1997 he would be a McDonald's A.A. , a five star recruit and everybody would be after him including Duke and we would all be hoping he would choose Duke. He could drill the eyes out of the ball and his shooting range was NBA 3-point range. He could jump, rebound and had no fear of nobody. I was very young when he played at Duke and since he wasn't on television much I can't remember seeing him play much but I remember old Duke fans talking about how great he was. Heyman25 is a little older than myself and could tell the posters more than I. I can't tell you why his game didn't translate to the NB but when it comes to all-time Duke greats he has to be in the mix. One of the things that I seem to dwell on is these pre Coach K players who most of the younger posters are unaware of. I'm not trying to lecture the younger fans but just let them know how great and far back the Duke basketball legacy is. I t goes back to before even I was born with Dick Groat. OFC

 

[kingbluedevil]

Randy Denton and Chris Redding were also good players around the early 70's.

 

[aah555]

No Art Heyman wasn't eligible to play as a freshman. Heyman25 was just trying to acknowledge what he did do on the freshman team that year. Art Heyman was a great, great collegiate basketball player and just because he was born in the 1940's doesn't mean he couldn't play the game today . If he were born in 1996 or 1997 he would be a McDonald's A.A. , a five star recruit and everybody would be after him including Duke and we would all be hoping he would choose Duke. He could drill the eyes out of the ball and his shooting range was NBA 3-point range. He could jump, rebound and had no fear of nobody. I was very young when he played at Duke and since he wasn't on television much I can't remember seeing him play much but I remember old Duke fans talking about how great he was. Heyman25 is a little older than myself and could tell the posters more than I. I can't tell you why his game didn't translate to the NB but when it comes to all-time Duke greats he has to be in the mix. One of the things that I seem to dwell on is these pre Coach K players who most of the younger posters are unaware of. I'm not trying to lecture the younger fans but just let them know how great and far back the Duke basketball legacy is. I t goes back to before even I was born with Dick Groat. OFC

That's fine. It's impossible to really compare b/c the eras are just so different. Heyman clearly predates me by a couple decades, and I've only seen a handful of grainy clips of him. Clearly he holds a very important place in the history of putting Duke b-ball on the map, and I'm not questioning that at all.

With that said, and this is not specific to Heyman, but I have a hard time putting guys who played before the mid-60s in any kind of historical perspective b/c the game they played was so different -- it was far less athletic / below the rim, no shotclock, no 3 pt shot, etc., and it's hard to ignore the fact that Heyman played during an era of segregation -- i.e., Heyman's career ended 3 years before the famous UK-UTEP game and 4 years before Charlie Scott first broke through in the ACC. From everyone who watched him play + his numbers, I'm sure he was an outstanding player who could have been very good in any era. But, when you've seen how the face of the game has changed after integration, it's hard for me to ignore that fact as well.

 

[dukehokie]

Elton Brand's 13 ppg and 7.3 rpg deserves a mention.

Another interesting freshman stat is that Greg Paulus was the first freshman to lead the ACC in assists.

 

[CRAZIE4LIFE]

Jason Williams was huge his freshman year, I don't think had ever seen an exodus of players like they had the year before and was truly dependent on the incoming freshman. Those first two games of that season was kinda rough against two top teams but after that Jason responded and I believe lead Duke to a 15-1 ACC record. I'd say Johnny Dawkins would be my other top freshmen.

 

[Dattier]

Heyman clearly predates me by a couple decades, and I've only seen a handful of grainy clips of him.

For clarity's sake, it wasn't the clips that were grainy. People were actually a lot granier back then. It was back before we started fluorinating water.

 

[Heyman25]

That's fine. It's impossible to really compare b/c the eras are just so different. Heyman clearly predates me by a couple decades, and I've only seen a handful of grainy clips of him. Clearly he holds a very important place in the history of putting Duke b-ball on the map, and I'm not questioning that at all.

With that said, and this is not specific to Heyman, but I have a hard time putting guys who played before the mid-60s in any kind of historical perspective b/c the game they played was so different -- it was far less athletic / below the rim, no shotclock, no 3 pt shot, etc., and it's hard to ignore the fact that Heyman played during an era of segregation -- i.e., Heyman's career ended 3 years before the famous UK-UTEP game and 4 years before Charlie Scott first broke through in the ACC. From everyone who watched him play + his numbers, I'm sure he was an outstanding player who could have been very good in any era. But, when you've seen how the face of the game has changed after integration, it's hard for me to ignore that fact as well.

I truly do not know how to respond to this post. I will just be nice and refrain. OFC

 

[Laettner]

1. Jah
2. Dawkins
3. Deng
4. Hill
5. Brand

Jabari was great player but his cast had zero chemistry.

 

[OldasdirtDevil]

I truly do not know how to respond to this post. I will just be nice and refrain. OFC

Well, I'll try to, Heyman, but I'm not really attempting to sway anyone's mind...just to restate our point of view a little differently.

Yes, I agree it is difficult to compare players from different eras, with different rules, etc...really no fair way imo. Players today are more athletic, but I'll counter that the players from long ago were more fundamentally sound. Do I think all players from 50 years ago could play at a high level today...NO...absolutely NOT. But there were 'special players' who could, and I believe that Heyman was one of them...but that's just my IMO No way to actually prove it...or disprove it.

There were black basketball players around playing in college then, even if not in the South. Bill Russell, Wilt, Big O, etc. Jerry West played in the late 50's in college, and I think he proved that a white player could hang...since his NBA career was quite long and illustrious. He's not the Logo for nothing. Now Heyman didn't pan out in the NBA as well
as West, but he started off with a bang by averaging over 15 points a game, and being named to the All Rookie NBA team. But ultimately his hot temper, and ferociousness was his undoing...even though it was a major part of his on court swagger.

And the most important point I would like to make is we're talking about Heyman in the context of great freshman seasons of all time...at Duke. True, they didn't play varsity during their freshman years back then. But Heymans 'freshman' year was still incredible, and of course some will say not against the better competition, well, then the sophomore year he had was one of the great seasons for any Duke player. But the counter will be that it's not a 'freshman' season...but I counter it's the closest comparison we can make if we attempt to compare eras. The players nowadays are not the freshman players of the old days. They have played year round against the best competition (not locally as bygone years), played in tournaments around the country, played against international competition on 'Select' teams, etc. A freshman of today is not the equivalent of a freshman 50 years ago...or even 25. And the dramatic effect the 'one and dones' have had on the game show just that imo. So, I think the freshman today are closer to the sophomore seasons of many years past. That said, it's not a perfect comparison, and there will never be a true comparison that will under go scrutiny by either side of the argument.

40 years from now our younger posters (who will be old...like us...well...we'll be dead ) will be trying to validate Jah, Kyrie, Jabari, etc...and they too will have an uphill battle making their case. Yeah, I know they don't believe that now, but if I can look down on them (or perhaps up) , I'll just give a little wink and a nod.

Oh, and a further point, I'm not dissing our younger posters...I was once young myself believe it or not. Age hasn't made me necessarily better, just different. Perspective changes as we get older (for good or bad).
Anyway this post was just to put the older guy's 'perspective' on it.

OFC

 

[jimlsumner]

Folks, Gene Banks has got to be at or darn near the top. He joined a program that hadn't won more than 14 games in its previous six seasons, averaged 17.1 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 3.6 apg, shot 52.8 percent from the field.

That 1978 team went 27-7, won the ACC Tournament for the first time since 1966 and advanced all the way to the NCA title game, where they lost to Kentucky.

And remember, this was pretty early in the freshman-eligible era and a time without significant early-to-the-NBA attrition. So, he was doing this against top-level upperclassmen. The ACC POY in 1978 was senior Phil Ford. No way a player like Ford would make it to his senior year in today's landscape.

Banks was second-team All-ACC and didn't get the kind of NPOY support garnered by Parker and Okafor. But Parker and Okafor played in a much different environment.

So Banks definitely makes my top three, along with the aforementioned Parker and Okafor. Placement within that group would depend on the weight assigned to different variables. But it would be close.

 

[crazyduke3]

Great discussion guys. I see the pros and cons of the Art heyman Debate. Would it be fair to say that everybody else's sophomore year was their first year? Then it wasn't like he was a sophomore against frosh either and also the top talent stuck around his day, where a Jabari and Jahlil did not have such worries (consider that Anthony Davis would have been a senior this year for UK.... they would without any question have won the national and smoked wisky and us with him around. ) Plus, I think Art's size would help him to stay current with the game, K could use him well with his 6'5 height.

That said, the game was drastically different back then and it's extremely hard to determine how effective players from 45 years ago would perform in this days game.

I've seen absolutely no film of Art, so to be fair I did not include him in my list. That said, the discussion is not how would Art perform in todays game, it's simply who had the best freshmen years at duke. If we could, you could list guys from 1700 if you wanted to.

 

[Heyman25]

Well, I'll try to, Heyman, but I'm not really attempting to sway anyone's mind...just to restate our point of view a little differently.

Yes, I agree it is difficult to compare players from different eras, with different rules, etc...really no fair way imo. Players today are more athletic, but I'll counter that the players from long ago were more fundamentally sound. Do I think all players from 50 years ago could play at a high level today...NO...absolutely NOT. But there were 'special players' who could, and I believe that Heyman was one of them...but that's just my IMO No way to actually prove it...or disprove it.

There were black basketball players around playing in college then, even if not in the South. Bill Russell, Wilt, Big O, etc. Jerry West played in the late 50's in college, and I think he proved that a white player could hang...since his NBA career was quite long and illustrious. He's not the Logo for nothing. Now Heyman didn't pan out in the NBA as well
as West, but he started off with a bang by averaging over 15 points a game, and being named to the All Rookie NBA team. But ultimately his hot temper, and ferociousness was his undoing...even though it was a major part of his on court swagger.

And the most important point I would like to make is we're talking about Heyman in the context of great freshman seasons of all time...at Duke. True, they didn't play varsity during their freshman years back then. But Heymans 'freshman' year was still incredible, and of course some will say not against the better competition, well, then the sophomore year he had was one of the great seasons for any Duke player. But the counter will be that it's not a 'freshman' season...but I counter it's the closest comparison we can make if we attempt to compare eras. The players nowadays are not the freshman players of the old days. They have played year round against the best competition (not locally as bygone years), played in tournaments around the country, played against international competition on 'Select' teams, etc. A freshman of today is not the equivalent of a freshman 50 years ago...or even 25. And the dramatic effect the 'one and dones' have had on the game show just that imo. So, I think the freshman today are closer to the sophomore seasons of many years past. That said, it's not a perfect comparison, and there will never be a true comparison that will under go scrutiny by either side of the argument.

40 years from now our younger posters (who will be old...like us...well...we'll be dead ) will be trying to validate Jah, Kyrie, Jabari, etc...and they too will have an uphill battle making their case. Yeah, I know they don't believe that now, but if I can look down on them (or perhaps up) , I'll just give a little wink and a nod.

Oh, and a further point, I'm not dissing our younger posters...I was once young myself believe it or not. Age hasn't made me necessarily better, just different. Perspective changes as we get older (for good or bad).
Anyway this post was just to put the older guy's 'perspective' on it.

OFC

Very well stated Dirt. Could not have said it better myself. Thanks for the "endorsement". OFC

 

[jimlsumner]

I don't see how we can equate the sophomore seasons of Heyman, Mullins, Verga, et. al. with the freshmen seasons from 1973 on. Just not the same thing.

 

[skysdad]

Well, I'll try to, Heyman, but I'm not really attempting to sway anyone's mind...just to restate our point of view a little differently.

Yes, I agree it is difficult to compare players from different eras, with different rules, etc...really no fair way imo. Players today are more athletic, but I'll counter that the players from long ago were more fundamentally sound. Do I think all players from 50 years ago could play at a high level today...NO...absolutely NOT. But there were 'special players' who could, and I believe that Heyman was one of them...but that's just my IMO No way to actually prove it...or disprove it.

There were black basketball players around playing in college then, even if not in the South. Bill Russell, Wilt, Big O, etc. Jerry West played in the late 50's in college, and I think he proved that a white player could hang...since his NBA career was quite long and illustrious. He's not the Logo for nothing. Now Heyman didn't pan out in the NBA as well
as West, but he started off with a bang by averaging over 15 points a game, and being named to the All Rookie NBA team. But ultimately his hot temper, and ferociousness was his undoing...even though it was a major part of his on court swagger.

And the most important point I would like to make is we're talking about Heyman in the context of great freshman seasons of all time...at Duke. True, they didn't play varsity during their freshman years back then. But Heymans 'freshman' year was still incredible, and of course some will say not against the better competition, well, then the sophomore year he had was one of the great seasons for any Duke player. But the counter will be that it's not a 'freshman' season...but I counter it's the closest comparison we can make if we attempt to compare eras. The players nowadays are not the freshman players of the old days. They have played year round against the best competition (not locally as bygone years), played in tournaments around the country, played against international competition on 'Select' teams, etc. A freshman of today is not the equivalent of a freshman 50 years ago...or even 25. And the dramatic effect the 'one and dones' have had on the game show just that imo. So, I think the freshman today are closer to the sophomore seasons of many years past. That said, it's not a perfect comparison, and there will never be a true comparison that will under go scrutiny by either side of the argument.

40 years from now our younger posters (who will be old...like us...well...we'll be dead ) will be trying to validate Jah, Kyrie, Jabari, etc...and they too will have an uphill battle making their case. Yeah, I know they don't believe that now, but if I can look down on them (or perhaps up) , I'll just give a little wink and a nod.

Oh, and a further point, I'm not dissing our younger posters...I was once young myself believe it or not. Age hasn't made me necessarily better, just different. Perspective changes as we get older (for good or bad).
Anyway this post was just to put the older guy's 'perspective' on it.

OFC

Awesome post and you nailed it. Jim. Thanks. OFC

 

[SCDuke15]

Winslow needs some love.