One-and-Done should be TWO-and-done

[DukeJim99]

you keep bringing up age which is why i said what i said. when you say adults you are talking age. like i said before it's no different from a company having on their app "must have 2-3 years of experience". this is the elite of the elite so there should be some kind of requirement to get in. being good in high school and making 18 isn't enough. you might be adult age at 18 but you are still and immature kid at the end of the day. I need to see you against other potential pros and see what you can do.

It's completely different. As I tried to explain before, the Boston Celtics could have a policy of "we don't draft anyone who hasn't played at least two years of college ball because we think scouting high school kids is too difficult" and that would raise ZERO antitrust issues. But for all the teams in the NBA to get together and agree that none of them will draft kids who haven't played two years of college ball? That's the antitrust issue.

So, to try to give you an analogy outside the sports world... If Apple said "our company policy is to not hire any programmers who don't have 3 years of programming experience" that's not an antitrust violation. But if all the CEOs of every major silicon valley company got together and agreed that they would all adopt the same policy? That's almost certainly an antitrust violation.

 

[jwill133]

I wouldn't say they're better. Because when majority of them get to the league they don't do much to back up all of the hype. All 5 of those freshmen you named will be maybe 12 point scorers and role players at best in the league next year. you might get one that actually stand out on a consistent basis. we all know the big men will struggle out the gates. that's pretty much a done deal. big men take even longer to get comfortable in the pros than they do in college because the physicality is on another level. defense is very important in the NBA. they won't play you much if you can't defend or understand rotations. I love bagley but next year he will probably be a 12 and 6 guy. that's pretty good but that's not gon help the terrible team he will play for any better.

the reason more freshmen are the best now is because the freshmen from the year before are gone. if they stay then maybe one of these freshmen would be top 10. just imagine if we had tatum and a healthy giles this year. bagley would probably be a 10 and 10 player but jayson tatum would be the superstar in college basketball

I agree that the reason freshman are the best players, is all the best players the year before are gone, fair point.
I still think guys are coming into college more athletic and more skilled than ever, but yes there are definitely defensive questions, probably due to AAU ball. The shooting, ball handling, etc. though just seems off the charts compared to what it once was.

Tatum is making an actual difference for his NBA team, not putting up superstar numbers, but the celtics would not be as great without Tatum. Towns was the best player on his team his rookie year. So I completely disagree that OAD rookies can’t make an immediate impact. Bagley may be 12 and 6 next year (I’d predict 16 and 9) but I guarantee that one of these (probably more) make a real impact in the league next season.

 

[dachampishere2]

It's completely different. As I tried to explain before, the Boston Celtics could have a policy of "we don't draft anyone who hasn't played at least two years of college ball because we think scouting high school kids is too difficult" and that would raise ZERO antitrust issues. But for all the teams in the NBA to get together and agree that none of them will draft kids who haven't played two years of college ball? That's the antitrust issue.

So, to try to give you an analogy outside the sports world... If Apple said "our company policy is to not hire any programmers who don't have 3 years of programming experience" that's not an antitrust violation. But if all the CEOs of every major silicon valley company got together and agreed that they would all adopt the same policy? That's almost certainly an antitrust violation.

here's where you're getting it mixed up...the NBA IS Apple. the teams are like different departments of the company. these teams aren't separate businesses. they're all under one company, one rule. there's no boston celtics if there's no nba.

 

[DukeJim99]

here's where you're getting it mixed up...the NBA IS Apple. the teams are like different departments of the company. these teams aren't separate businesses. they're all under one company, one rule. there's no boston celtics if there's no nba.

So it's your belief the NBA owns the Boston Celtics? Or that the Celtics are a wholly-owned subsidiary of the NBA? Because either of those things would be news to, well, everyone.

Antitrust rules apply to sports teams (with the weird exception of baseball, but that discussion is for another day) exactly because those teams are competitors within a marketplace. They are not part of one single company. The Pistons compete (poorly) with the Celtics. For players. For fans. For merch sales. Thus, the Pistons and Celtics are not allowed to collude in violation of antitrust rules. Even though they're both in the NBA.

I'm starting to think you've never studied antitrust law... ;-)

 

[dachampishere2]

I agree that the reason freshman are the best players, is all the best players the year before are gone, fair point.
I still think guys are coming into college more athletic and more skilled than ever, but yes there are definitely defensive questions, probably due to AAU ball. The shooting, ball handling, etc. though just seems off the charts compared to what it once was.

Tatum is making an actual difference for his NBA team, not putting up superstar numbers, but the celtics would not be as great without Tatum. Towns was the best player on his team his rookie year. So I completely disagree that OAD rookies can’t make an immediate impact. Bagley may be 12 and 6 next year (I’d predict 16 and 9) but I guarantee that one of these (probably more) make a real impact in the league next season.

Yes sometimes you have a few standouts. The reason Tatum is making a difference because of his commitment to defense, length, and understanding of the game. shooting and dribbling is easy. understanding spacing and how to move without the ball is what set some apart. But those players were one-and-done and not straight out of high school. They went through a year off conference play in tough venues and got high level coaching. High school kid doesn't have that experience

 

[dachampishere2]

So it's your belief the NBA owns the Boston Celtics? Or that the Celtics are a wholly-owned subsidiary of the NBA? Because either of those things would be news to, well, everyone.

The Celtics are under the NBA brand. These teams make up the NBA. NBA is just the name of the organization. The union set requirements for the organization. if it was as unethical as people say to set requirements for the league they would've been forced to change it by now. People always try to throw out if you can go to war then you should be able to play basketball at 18. That's just crazy. War is all about numbers so obviously they want as many people as they can get. The NBA is about the best playing. They don't feel an 18 year old is mature enough mentally or physically to handle a full season. They have plenty evidence to prove why they're right.

 

[DukeJim99]

The Celtics are under the NBA brand. These teams make up the NBA. NBA is just the name of the organization. The union set requirements for the organization. if it was as unethical as people say to set requirements for the league they would've been forced to change it by now. People always try to throw out if you can go to war then you should be able to play basketball at 18. That's just crazy. War is all about numbers so obviously they want as many people as they can get. The NBA is about the best playing. They don't feel an 18 year old is mature enough mentally or physically to handle a full season. They have plenty evidence to prove why they're right.

Well, almost none of that is true.

Again, the Celtics are a separate company from the Pistons and directly compete with the Pistons in the marketplace. Thus, but for labor law issues involving the unionization of NBA players, all normal antitrust rules would apply as regards the Celtics and Pistons interactions. The fact that they both have some agreements with the NBA to use the NBA brand is irrelevant to antitrust.

The union doesn't set requirements. The union bargains with management. I've already explained that a federal court of appeals has said that such bargaining is relevant to the antitrust analysis and is, in fact, the only basis that I've seen that a court has found that would allow such otherwise collusive activity as setting age/years out of high school restrictions to stand.

I'm sorry someone who isn't me used a war analogy as regards the NBA and that upset you.

You say: "The NBA is about the best playing. They don't feel an 18 year old is mature enough mentally or physically to handle a full season." If both of those statements were true, then they wouldn't need a rule in place. 18 year olds would go undrafted if they entered the draft. But the NBA isn't about the best playing. NBA teams are sometimes (often? always?) about developing for the future. And that often means drafting talent that isn't NBA ready but will some day be an NBA star. See, for example, well, tons and tons of OAD players. Most OAD players get drafted not based on current ability to start and star in an 82-game NBA season, but based on potential. The OAD rule helps NBA teams not throw away money and draft picks on guys who they thought would be stars by giving them one extra year to evaluate prior to drafting them, and providing the NBA with a free minor league system aka college basketball. It is to help the NBA team owners not waste money. Which, you know, good for them and all. Until it becomes an antitrust violation.

 

[jwill133]

Yes sometimes you have a few standouts. The reason Tatum is making a difference because of his commitment to defense, length, and understanding of the game. shooting and dribbling is easy. understanding spacing and how to move without the ball is what set some apart. But those players were one-and-done and not straight out of high school. They went through a year off conference play in tough venues and got high level coaching. High school kid doesn't have that experience

The High School to the NBA era was basically from 96-2006. I'm really confused about your theory that High-Schoolers aren't prepared for the NBA, because during that time, most of the NBA All-Stars were guys straight out of High School. Garnett, Kobe, Lebron, Howard, McGrady, Kemp, Amare Stoudamire just to name a few.
Obviously, those guys would be the OAD blue-chippers of today...Bagley, Simmons, Towns, Wiggins, etc. But the guys right out of high-school, had better careers than the OAD's today.

Your saying the Cream-of-the-crop High Schooler isn't gonna be prepared for the NBA, but for a 10 year stretch, all the best NBA players came right outta High School????

 

[dachampishere2]

The High School to the NBA era was basically from 96-2006. I'm really confused about your theory that High-Schoolers aren't prepared for the NBA, because during that time, most of the NBA All-Stars were guys straight out of High School. Garnett, Kobe, Lebron, Howard, McGrady, Kemp, Amare Stoudamire just to name a few.
Obviously, those guys would be the OAD blue-chippers of today...Bagley, Simmons, Towns, Wiggins, etc. But the guys right out of high-school, had better careers than the OAD's today.

Your saying the Cream-of-the-crop High Schooler isn't gonna be prepared for the NBA, but for a 10 year stretch, all the best NBA players came right outta High School????

you clearly missed the part where i said the level of coaching is terrible at the high school and AAU level. even kobe said AAU has ruined basketball.

 

[dachampishere2]

Well, almost none of that is true.

Again, the Celtics are a separate company from the Pistons and directly compete with the Pistons in the marketplace. Thus, but for labor law issues involving the unionization of NBA players, all normal antitrust rules would apply as regards the Celtics and Pistons interactions. The fact that they both have some agreements with the NBA to use the NBA brand is irrelevant to antitrust.

The union doesn't set requirements. The union bargains with management. I've already explained that a federal court of appeals has said that such bargaining is relevant to the antitrust analysis and is, in fact, the only basis that I've seen that a court has found that would allow such otherwise collusive activity as setting age/years out of high school restrictions to stand.

I'm sorry someone who isn't me used a war analogy as regards the NBA and that upset you.

You say: "The NBA is about the best playing. They don't feel an 18 year old is mature enough mentally or physically to handle a full season." If both of those statements were true, then they wouldn't need a rule in place. 18 year olds would go undrafted if they entered the draft. But the NBA isn't about the best playing. NBA teams are sometimes (often? always?) about developing for the future. And that often means drafting talent that isn't NBA ready but will some day be an NBA star. See, for example, well, tons and tons of OAD players. Most OAD players get drafted not based on current ability to start and star in an 82-game NBA season, but based on potential. The OAD rule helps NBA teams not throw away money and draft picks on guys who they thought would be stars by giving them one extra year to evaluate prior to drafting them, and providing the NBA with a free minor league system aka college basketball. It is to help the NBA team owners not waste money. Which, you know, good for them and all. Until it becomes an antitrust violation.

they want to clearly use college to be able to scout the players more. once again they believe kids coming out of high school aren't prepared. so they want you to prove something against older guys that you can't just overpower. did you see how jevon carter did trae young. just imagine that being patrick beverly. trae young couldn't handle that pressure. he's too small. he couldn't handle that physicality and jevon carter is nowhere near as good as beverly.

you can bring up antitrust laws and all of that if you want. the NBA and players union can do what they want when it comes to this. they have the power to whether you like it or not. those antitrust rules clearly don't apply when it comes to these sports leagues. they tried to argue against it and failed.

people always argue this for football but you never here a player out of high school in football should go right to the league.

 

[jwill133]

you clearly missed the part where i said the level of coaching is terrible at the high school and AAU level. even kobe said AAU has ruined basketball.

I clearly acknowledged a couple posts ago the fact that AAU basketball has harmed the defensive intensity/insticts of a lot of stud OAD prospects.

I refuted your theory on the last post that guys aren't ready for the league right outta High School, but that a year or 2 in college better prepares them. And I did that by listing a lot of the best NBA players over a 10 year stretch, most of whom were right out of High School.

Sooooo,again....I still believe guys coming outta High School are more skilled than ever, but yes, they lack defensive intensity/instincts (Yes, Mr. Kobe Bean Bryant, that can be correlated to AAU basketball, hilarious referencing Kobe though, one of the most selfish guys ever) but the guys who spend a year in college have not had the same level of success as the guys before them who could go right out of High School. So ultimately, a year in college has done nothing but take a year's worth of pay out of an NBA player's pockets. And recent history tells us that guys were more successful out of High School than as a OAD.

 

[dachampishere2]

I clearly acknowledged a couple posts ago the fact that AAU basketball has harmed the defensive intensity/insticts of a lot of stud OAD prospects.

I refuted your theory on the last post that guys aren't ready for the league right outta High School, but that a year or 2 in college better prepares them. And I did that by listing a lot of the best NBA players over a 10 year stretch, most of whom were right out of High School.

Sooooo,again....I still believe guys coming outta High School are more skilled than ever, but yes, they lack defensive intensity/instincts (Yes, Mr. Kobe Bean Bryant, that can be correlated to AAU basketball) but the guys who spend a year in college have not had the same level of success as the guys before them who could go right out of High School. So ultimately, a year in college has done nothing but take a year's worth of pay out of an NBA player's pockets. And recent history tells us that guys were more successful out of High School than as a OAD.

i don't know how you can say high school players are more skilled. remember these one and dones would've come out of high school if not for the rules. those high school players back then were still better than the one and dones now. which means coming out of high school they were better obviously

 

[dachampishere2]

I clearly acknowledged a couple posts ago the fact that AAU basketball has harmed the defensive intensity/insticts of a lot of stud OAD prospects.

I refuted your theory on the last post that guys aren't ready for the league right outta High School, but that a year or 2 in college better prepares them. And I did that by listing a lot of the best NBA players over a 10 year stretch, most of whom were right out of High School.

Sooooo,again....I still believe guys coming outta High School are more skilled than ever, but yes, they lack defensive intensity/instincts (Yes, Mr. Kobe Bean Bryant, that can be correlated to AAU basketball, hilarious referencing Kobe though, one of the most selfish guys ever) but the guys who spend a year in college have not had the same level of success as the guys before them who could go right out of High School. So ultimately, a year in college has done nothing but take a year's worth of pay out of an NBA player's pockets. And recent history tells us that guys were more successful out of High School than as a OAD.

Think about it...If the one-and-dones now aren't better than the high schoolers back then that means the level of high school players are down. High schoolers back then made more of an impact in the league as players that got to college for one year now

 

[skysdad]

We've discussed this topic many times on this board and the majority will agree that we hope the one and done days are over soon. I don't have any idea of how will effect college basketball recruiting but the best coaches will still be the best and if Coach K does hang around he will figure it out and Duke will always be contending. If Coach K's time is short I have all the confidence in the world of his successor who ever that is. OFC