Is Zion Williamson the most dominant player in NCAA History?

[jimlsumner]

I'm sorry but not even close.

We've talked about Alcindor/Jabbar.

But let's look at Bill Walton. Three varsity seasons at UCLA. 20.3 ppg, 15.7 rpg, 65.1 percent from the field. And that's over 87 games. They didn't keep blocked or steals stats in those days but Walton would have a lot of the latter and a lot, lot of the former. They did keep assists stats in his senior season and he averaged 5.5. Many consider Walton the best outlet passer ever.

Ever heard of Jerry Lucas? Three years at Ohio State, 24.3 ppg, 17.2 rpg, 62.4 from the field, 77.7 from the line. One national title, two runners-up.

Elvin Hayes averaged 36.8 points and 18.9 rebounds per game as as a senior, shooting 54.9 from the field.

David Thompson averaged 26.8 ppg and 8.1 rpg over an 86-game career, shooting 55.3 and 76.3.

I could go on a long, long time. There have been a lot of truly great college players, whose careers lasted much longer than the 20 games we've seen from Williamson.

He's not even in the discussion. No OAD player could be, IMO. There's no way a one-year player, even a great one, can have a career to match great 3-and-4 year players of the past. Apples and kumquats.

 

[HeLooks2MuchLikeDave]

I'm sorry but not even close.

We've talked about Alcindor/Jabbar.

But let's look at Bill Walton. Three varsity seasons at UCLA. 20.3 ppg, 15.7 rpg, 65.1 percent from the field. And that's over 87 games. They didn't keep blocked or steals stats in those days but Walton would have a lot of the latter and a lot, lot of the former. They did keep assists stats in his senior season and he averaged 5.5. Many consider Walton the best outlet passer ever.

Ever heard of Jerry Lucas? Three years at Ohio State, 24.3 ppg, 17.2 rpg, 62.4 from the field, 77.7 from the line. One national title, two runners-up.

Elvin Hayes averaged 36.8 points and 18.9 rebounds per game as as a senior, shooting 54.9 from the field.

David Thompson averaged 26.8 ppg and 8.1 rpg over an 86-game career, shooting 55.3 and 76.3.

I could go on a long, long time. There have been a lot of truly great college players, whose careers lasted much longer than the 20 games we've seen from Williamson.

He's not even in the discussion. No OAD player could be, IMO. There's no way a one-year player, even a great one, can have a career to match great 3-and-4 year players of the past. Apples and kumquats.

I don’t think we are comparing careers (at least we shouldn’t be). I understood the question to be just purely about dominance. If all the titans of college basketball came and played in a game together, who would have the biggest impact? Tough question. But if they were all 18 years old, I don’t know that it wouldn’t be Zion.

 

[df64]

If Wilt was 7'2" and had a 48" vertical, his head would have been at the top of the Box.

 

[jimlsumner]

I don’t think we are comparing careers (at least we shouldn’t be). I understood the question to be just purely about dominance. If all the titans of college basketball came and played in a game together, who would have the biggest impact? Tough question. But if they were all 18 years old, I don’t know that it wouldn’t be Zion.

Well, what are we comparing if not careers? How would we define "most dominant player in NCAA history" without referencing a career or at least an entire season?

Bill Walton once had an NCAA championship game in which he hit 21-of-22 field goals, added two foul shots for 44 points and added 13 rebounds against a 6-10 defender who would go on to play in three ABA and two NBA All-Star games.

And his team won by 21 points.

That's pretty darn dominant.

 

[Mac9192]

Agree that it’s hard to compare Zion in terms of career, but a really strong argument could be made that he’s the best freshman ever at Duke. There’s been some good one’s too.

 

[DeepColor]

I'd take a senior Maye over a freshman Williamson any day of the week......

I say Zion will emerge as an even better player after Big Luke Maye takes him to school on the 20th. I hope Zions ego can handle the beat down.

 

[gottagonow]

Zion is the current edition on the best player ever and I love watching him play but Elvin Hayes had what I remember as the greatest year ever for a college player and was by far the most dominate in just one season. He is simply forgotton by the younger generations of fans. Remember the Alcindor vs Hayes game at the Astrodome in Houston. People forget that UCLA beat every team they played by 30 to 40 points it seems and Alcindor was just one of 5 great players and they played 4 years and lost just a couple of games in Alcindors 4 years. Players are just more atheletic and big now days and it makes them seem larger than life sometimes.

I'm curious to see if the Anthony Davis or Zion Williamson discussion gets heated... UK fans will LOSE THEIR MINDS.

Or lose what's left of their minds. Whatever.

They already traded their minds for some teeth or a tooth or whatever.

 

[BlueDevilWildcat]

Agree that it’s hard to compare Zion in terms of career, but a really strong argument could be made that he’s the best freshman ever at Duke. There’s been some good one’s too.

I think he passed "best Duke frosh" bar a few weeks ago.

I think he's in the convo for best individual season by any Duke player. As far back as advanced stats go, he has the highest win-shares, total box score, and PER of any Duke (actually, any team's) player.

 

[jeffrey236]

Zion is the current edition on the best player ever and I love watching him play but Elvin Hayes had what I remember as the greatest year ever for a college player and was by far the most dominate in just one season. He is simply forgotton by the younger generations of fans. Remember the Alcindor vs Hayes game at the Astrodome in Houston. People forget that UCLA beat every team they played by 30 to 40 points it seems and Alcindor was just one of 5 great players and they played 4 years and lost just a couple of games in Alcindors 4 years. Players are just more atheletic and big now days and it makes them seem larger than life sometimes.

They already traded their minds for some teeth or a tooth or whatever.

Don’t forget Alcindor played that game with one eye injured. In the rematch when he was healthy, he got the better of Hayes, outscoring him 19-10 and outrebounding him 18-5.

 

[duhondukie]

In terms of college player I would think one would have to include Christian Laettner in that conversation

 

[springsportster]

By the way, at 7"2" Wilt had a 48" vertical. If he were in his prime today I think he would be dominant.

http://theexercisers.com/how-to-inc...e-vertical-jump/highest-vertical-jump-in-nba/

To be 7'2" back then, that's like being 7'7" or more today. That is freakish.

 

[gottagonow]

Don’t forget Alcindor played that game with one eye injured. In the rematch when he was healthy, he got the better of Hayes, outscoring him 19-10 and outrebounding him 18-5.

Do you remember how that injured scratched eye was the story of the year in the sports world. The game almost got overshadowed by the eye. I didn't realize the differencein stats in the rematch.

 

[dbav]

Yeah, but can he do this against college competition rather than 5 foot tall high school kids...oh wait.

 

[dukehokie]

Well, what are we comparing if not careers? How would we define "most dominant player in NCAA history" without referencing a career or at least an entire season?

Bill Walton once had an NCAA championship game in which he hit 21-of-22 field goals, added two foul shots for 44 points and added 13 rebounds against a 6-10 defender who would go on to play in three ABA and two NBA All-Star games.

And his team won by 21 points.

That's pretty darn dominant.

Not disagreeing with the players you listed, but it’s not fair to say Zion couldn’t do what he’s doing for 3-4 seasons. Theoretically he would only get better or at least stay about same. That’s pretty damn good. It’s the time of the season. If you can dribble you’re going pro. Put Zion in a different era, and he’s in the best player ever discussion, I’m sorry, but it’s true.

 

[skysdad]

Not disagreeing with the players you listed, but it’s not fair to say Zion couldn’t do what he’s doing for 3-4 seasons. Theoretically he would only get better or at least stay about same. That’s pretty damn good. It’s the time of the season. If you can dribble you’re going pro. Put Zion in a different era, and he’s in the best player ever discussion, I’m sorry, but it’s true.

I can't speak for Jim but perhaps he's trying to say is counting tonight's game Zion has only played in 20 collegiate games . Thats not enough. We will never know how powerful a college player he could be. Only time will tell how great a player he will become. OFC

 

[dukehokie]

I can't speak for Jim but perhaps he's trying to say is counting tonight's game Zion has only played in 20 collegiate games . Thats not enough. We will never know how powerful a college player he could be. Only time will tell how great a player he will become. OFC

No I absolutely get that. He could be terrible every game from here on out. But assuming production, if he leads Duke to a title and is just as efficient and “dominant” down the stretch, does the opinion change? I think it should personally.

 

[AxeS24]

I don’t think we are comparing careers (at least we shouldn’t be). I understood the question to be just purely about dominance. If all the titans of college basketball came and played in a game together, who would have the biggest impact? Tough question. But if they were all 18 years old, I don’t know that it wouldn’t be Zion.

Correct.

I think Zion is the greatest ever in a vacuum.

He's going to be the best player in the world in a couple years. The face of the NBA. A megastar.

Enjoy him while we can at Duke.

The banner is going to look nice.

 

[AxeS24]

Not disagreeing with the players you listed, but it’s not fair to say Zion couldn’t do what he’s doing for 3-4 seasons. Theoretically he would only get better or at least stay about same. That’s pretty damn good. It’s the time of the season. If you can dribble you’re going pro. Put Zion in a different era, and he’s in the best player ever discussion, I’m sorry, but it’s true.

It is 100% true.

He plays harder than anyone else.
He is more efficient than anyone else.
He is more athletically gifted than anyone else- perhaps ever.

He is a perfect storm of basketball perfection.

I am about sick and tired of Jay Bilas saying "he's not the best player I've ever seen"

Shut up dude.

 

[AxeS24]

ACC Freshman of the Year
ACC Player of The Year
National Freshman Of The Year
National Player Of The Year
1st team All-American
#1 pick in NBA draft

He'll take them all and it won't be close.

 

[DukefanKY]

Not disagreeing with the players you listed, but it’s not fair to say Zion couldn’t do what he’s doing for 3-4 seasons. Theoretically he would only get better or at least stay about same. That’s pretty damn good. It’s the time of the season. If you can dribble you’re going pro. Put Zion in a different era, and he’s in the best player ever discussion, I’m sorry, but it’s true.

Zion against any of tbose players, who's your money on?

 

[dukehokie]

Zion against any of tbose players, who's your money on?

I’m taking George Mikan.

 

[peterjurkinsquirtsroywilliams]

Yeah, but can he do this against college competition rather than 5 foot tall high school kids...oh wait.

Just wait until he faces a real player in Big Luke Maye. There's no way Zion will be able to jump with Big Luke Maye.

 

[Liftee]

I may have missed it but I didn't see anyone compare Zion to David Thompson. Thompson had that same aura about him. Whenever he touched the ball there would be a buzz in the building. Like Zion, Thompson was a good teammate who only dominated when he needed to. Thompson did it at both ends also, and played hard all the time. And I consider Thompson to be one of the best 5 college players I've ever seen. Alcindor, Walton, Bradley, maybe Maravich for the show he put on.

 

[skysdad]

I can't believe Tyler Hansbrough hasn't been brought up in this discussion and that's a dadgummed shame . OFC

 

[Showenuff]

shutup skys!

 

[skysdad]

shutup skys!

LOL. See my new thread. OFC

 

[Quavarius]

Yes, oh pee

 

[crazyduke3]

Not disagreeing with the players you listed, but it’s not fair to say Zion couldn’t do what he’s doing for 3-4 seasons. Theoretically he would only get better or at least stay about same. That’s pretty damn good. It’s the time of the season. If you can dribble you’re going pro. Put Zion in a different era, and he’s in the best player ever discussion, I’m sorry, but it’s true.

I really appreciate this point. The question isn’t statistically who was the most dominant though it helps us to have a better idea. A fair question, would Bill Walton and David Thompson be able to do what what Zion is doing as well as he is doing it once their Freshman seasons. Of course in truth, we’ll never really know. In some ways the game is harder now. I believe overall talent is better across the board in college basketball than those old days. However the true top level talent was probably better back then because the true greats stuck around longer than one year. I am inclined to think Zion faces stiffer competition week to week than those guys. But as said, your David Thompson’s and Michael Jordan’s stick around for at least 3 years back then so yeah.

In the end, I’d still say Bill Walton just because of what he did in the title game. But I’m grateful to have such a great kid like Zion on our side.

 

[QC Dukie]

Did anyone see the ND students face when big Z high fived him going into the tunnel after the game?

 

[dukiejay]

What we're witnessing with Zion is pretty historic....regardless if he's the "most dominant" player in history or not.

I know this won't be popular with some, but I think Jay Bilas nails it in describing Zion. There has never, ever been another player like him in basketball. Not high school, college or the NBA.

Whether he's the most dominant or not....up for debate. But, has anyone been like him in the past, or is he truly one of a kind? I think that potentially tells you more.

 

[skysdad]

What we're witnessing with Zion is pretty historic....regardless if he's the "most dominant" player in history or not.

I know this won't be popular with some, but I think Jay Bilas nails it in describing Zion. There has never, ever been another player like him in basketball. Not high school, college or the NBA.

Whether he's the most dominant or not....up for debate. But, has anyone been like him in the past, or is he truly one of a kind? I think that potentially tells you more.

Jay hit the nail right on the head. Thats how I see Zion. I can't wait to see where he goes with his career. OFC

 

[jimlsumner]

So, Zion Williamson IS the most dominant college player ever because if he played through his senior year--which we all know he won't--he would have a better career than people who did play through their senior years.

Do I have that right?

But what if Kobe Bryant or Kevin Garnett or LeBron James played in college for four years? If we're going to ride the logical train into la-la land, why not go all the way?

The only rational discussion we can have about Zion Williamson is to compare him to other OADs. Comparing him to Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, Marvin Bagley, et. al. makes absolute sense and would be a fascinating debate.

And to go back to the question about Alcindor, Walton, Thompson, et. al as freshmen, would they be playing in a college-basketball universe in which most of the best players went to the NBA after a season?

Alcindor played against senior Elvin Hayes. Thompson played against senior Bill Walton. Magic Johnson played against upper-class Larry Bird.

Williamson isn't playing against that level of upper-class talent because those players are in their second or third year in the NBA.

This is one of the reasons this thread isn't talking about similar things.

BTW, I very much agree with Jay Bilas that Williamson has a combination of gifts that may well be unique in college basketball history. That doesn't mean that other greats didn't also have a different combination of unique talents.

 

[dukehokie]

So, Zion Williamson IS the most dominant college player ever because if he played through his senior year--which we all know he won't--he would have a better career than people who did play through their senior years.

Do I have that right?

But what if Kobe Bryant or Kevin Garnett or LeBron James played in college for four years? If we're going to ride the logical train into la-la land, why not go all the way?

The only rational discussion we can have about Zion Williamson is to compare him to other OADs. Comparing him to Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, Marvin Bagley, et. al. makes absolute sense and would be a fascinating debate.

And to go back to the question about Alcindor, Walton, Thompson, et. al as freshmen, would they be playing in a college-basketball universe in which most of the best players went to the NBA after a season?

Alcindor played against senior Elvin Hayes. Thompson played against senior Bill Walton. Magic Johnson played against upper-class Larry Bird.

Williamson isn't playing against that level of upper-class talent because those players are in their second or third year in the NBA.

This is one of the reasons this thread isn't talking about similar things.

BTW, I very much agree with Jay Bilas that Williamson has a combination of gifts that may well be unique in college basketball history. That doesn't mean that other greats didn't also have a different combination of unique talents.

No need for sarcasm Jim. We all know you’re the Duke guru. I’ve read your books for crying out loud. It’s just a discussion.

So what to you is “we’ve never seen a player like him?” What does that mean to you out of curiosity?

Also, how would you rate Zion’s season against past Duke greats? Freshmen, senior regardless. Season by season. Or would you even want to entertain that discussion?

 

[BlueDevilWildcat]

So, Zion Williamson IS the most dominant college player ever because if he played through his senior year--which we all know he won't--he would have a better career than people who did play through their senior years.

Do I have that right?

But what if Kobe Bryant or Kevin Garnett or LeBron James played in college for four years? If we're going to ride the logical train into la-la land, why not go all the way?

The only rational discussion we can have about Zion Williamson is to compare him to other OADs. Comparing him to Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, Marvin Bagley, et. al. makes absolute sense and would be a fascinating debate.

And to go back to the question about Alcindor, Walton, Thompson, et. al as freshmen, would they be playing in a college-basketball universe in which most of the best players went to the NBA after a season?

Alcindor played against senior Elvin Hayes. Thompson played against senior Bill Walton. Magic Johnson played against upper-class Larry Bird.

Williamson isn't playing against that level of upper-class talent because those players are in their second or third year in the NBA.

This is one of the reasons this thread isn't talking about similar things.

BTW, I very much agree with Jay Bilas that Williamson has a combination of gifts that may well be unique in college basketball history. That doesn't mean that other greats didn't also have a different combination of unique talents.

Jim, you're not at DBR. Most of us don't visit there because of responses like this. You might consider your conversations there more "elevated" but for most of us, they're just more annoying.

 

[Jakarii]

Three player race between Ja, Zion and Grant. Dark horse is that kid from Gonzaga who’s putting up some type of analytic numbers that hasn’t been put up since Shane Battier

Right now, it’s a one player race. It’s not even close.

 

[dukiejay]

Three player race between Ja, Zion and Grant. Dark horse is that kid from Gonzaga who’s putting up some type of analytic numbers that hasn’t been put up since Shane Battier

You’re wrong. It’s one.

 

[AxeS24]

Three player race between Ja, Zion and Grant. Dark horse is that kid from Gonzaga who’s putting up some type of analytic numbers that hasn’t been put up since Shane Battier

You're wrong.

 

[HeelsShmeels]

Zion is not Yrae Young. He plays team basketball and doesn’t just pad his stats every game. He could easily go for 30+ a night and still be efficient.

 

[BlueDevilWildcat]

Three player race between Ja, Zion and Grant. Dark horse is that kid from Gonzaga who’s putting up some type of analytic numbers that hasn’t been put up since Shane Battier

I think everyone but Zion is a dark horse, but a couple of the guys you mentioned are in the neighborhood.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2019-leaders.html
(scroll to bottom for advanced stats)

 

[retiredsoldier]

Just crazy!!!!