Conditioning and Strength vs Talent

[jamsession2]

The game was not as bad as what many of us have said, but what was obvious is the lack of strength. I was very concerned about numerous times our kids were knocked to the floor. I was concerned about getting out positioned for a rebound. Duke will play grown men this year. The COVID year is still present.

Is the weight room open on Saturdays ?

 

[LetsGoDuke83]

Last year of this Covid bullchit thank god, 26 year olds still in college

 

[christophero]

If Stewart becomes a stud that will plug the hole, but he may need a few years. That said, we will win a lot of games this year. But right now we are vulnerable to a certain type of team.

 

[sheyduke]

Unless the guards start rebounding at a decent amount and Reeves and Stewart start seeing meaningful minutes . Duke will have more close losses then there’s like .
I am surprised with the amount of guards in Duke’s arsenal the on ball pressure wasn’t heavier.
Only the second game but a lot to build on moving forward . Michigan St won’t be a cake walk . Our ball movement must also be way more effective .

 

[jamsession2]

Last year of this Covid bullchit thank god, 26 year olds still in college

Now that's funny. Lots of 24 year olds in college.

 

[bmbritt]

Unless the guards start rebounding at a decent amount and Reeves and Stewart start seeing meaningful minutes . Duke will have more close losses then there’s like .
I am surprised with the amount of guards in Duke’s arsenal the on ball pressure wasn’t heavier.
Only the second game but a lot to build on moving forward . Michigan St won’t be a cake walk . Our ball movement must also be way more effective .

Know that Scheyer has discussed getting more involved in the portal, but Duke basketball is running into similar issues that Clemson football is dealing with. I’ll take our team vs any other really talented team with mostly Freshman & Sophomores starting. Where we run into an issue is playing teams that have solid high school recruiting & development to go along with 2-3 portal players that really make an impact. We’ve got to get away from just bringing in portal players from the Ivy League and Northwestern.

 

[christophero]

Other than Roach we have freshman and sophomores starting. And 2 freshman off the bench. We are still a young team. Plenty of upside. And Mitchell coming off an injury.

 

[jamsession2]

Know that Scheyer has discussed getting more involved in the portal, but Duke basketball is running into similar issues that Clemson football is dealing with. I’ll take our team vs any other really talented team with mostly Freshman & Sophomores starting. Where we run into an issue is playing teams that have solid high school recruiting & development to go along with 2-3 portal players that really make an impact. We’ve got to get away from just bringing in portal players from the Ivy League and Northwestern.

That hurts. It hurts, but true.

 

[sheyduke]

Don’t really think as Duke continues to recruit at a high level they will get high profile transfers unless there is a clear cut opening at their position. The players Duke is getting out the portal are role players in general to help the freshman out . Don’t really see that changing .

 

[bmbritt]

Don’t really think as Duke continues to recruit at a high level they will get high profile transfers unless there is a clear cut opening at their position. The players Duke is getting out the portal are role players in general to help the freshman out . Don’t really see that changing .

Don’t necessarily agree with that. Yes, if he continues going after guys that bsrely started on a very average BIG10 or SEC team. I’ve got a hard time believing that a kid like Baylor Scheierman can’t be sold by this staff that he’s going to be a starter at Duke. Imagine this team with Hunter Dickinson. Yes, it will be hard to our recruit other teams for top scoring players out of the Big Sky league.

Know this may be a taboo thing to say but if Kentucky can land top portal players then we should be able to as well.

 

[sheyduke]

Don’t necessarily agree with that. Yes, if he continues going after guys that bsrely started on a very average BIG10 or SEC team. I’ve got a hard time believing that a kid like Baylor Scheierman can’t be sold by this staff that he’s going to be a starter at Duke. Imagine this team with Hunter Dickinson. Yes, it will be hard to our recruit other teams for top scoring players out of the Big Sky league.

Know this may be a taboo thing to say but if Kentucky can land top portal players then we should be able to as well.

But hasn’t Scheyer been attempting to do that ? How has it worked out ? Know that you have the top recruiting class to compete with for NIL money ?
I’ve said it before I’ll say it again . If their is a clear cut path to starting then Yes Scheyer can land top portal guys but when is that going to be the occasion at Duke ?
Duke will always get good back up players out the portal . But players want to go where they can play more minutes then their prior program . That ain’t going to happen at Duke unless they loose every player they go after . Look at next years class for example a bunch of 6’7” sg/wf players coming in . With Flagg and Oateick coming . You get Reeves and Stewart back what’s your punch line for playing time at any position other hen pg ? That’s if McCain and Foster don’t return with Blakes .

 

[DanTheDukeFan1982II]

I thought at times it looked like men against boys on Friday night. I love Flip, he is our best player, but he can’t keep falling down when going to the basket. I counted 9 easy points for Arizona when he fell down and Arizona went 5 on 4.

We have talent, and I don’t believe conditioning is the problem. We just have a strength/size issue, and Arizona was just a terrible matchup for us. Mitchell needed to not only play much better, but play bigger, we must have his size and athleticism to help down low.

 

[christophero]

I did notice Flip falling down a lot. And assuming Mitchell was hobbled, that set us back as well. He is a key guy for us. Someone mentioned teams like Arizona, UCLA and Gonzaga have been tapping the international market, maybe we could do that. Those kids may be more willing to wait and develop.

 

[timritterus]

Yeah, honestly the worst thing that could've happened was when Arizona got called for a foul on that one block out where Flip went to the ground. From that point on, I felt like he was hoping to get more of those calls. I know he seems to go down often, but it seemed more than usual that night, and although he wasn't totally flopping or anything, I do think he was trying to get the whistle on some of them.

 

[Mac9192]

I've been very high on Jon, and like the job he's done so far. But the blueprint is out there to beat us. Now it's up to him and the staff to see if they can motivate the players to be tougher. How Jon and the team responds will, imo, tell us a lot about him going forward.

It isn't strength and conditioning, it's toughness. Can Duke be tougher?

 

[Liftee]

I got tired of Coach K always saying that we got "knocked back" by a more physical team. I thought our team became more physical and tougher by the end of last year, Tenn. being the exception. It may take the freshman a while to get used to the physicality of college ball. If they never do, we will have problems. Reeves and Stewart, or one of them, need to grow up in a hurry.

 

[HeelsShmeels]

I guess MSU plans on playing thug ball, see if they can knock Duke around. Best chance for victory. Unless Duke is hitting 3’s.

 

[denverexpat]

Mental and physical attributes grow with time and effort....thats why older teams are better overall....its ok to be young and good, but its better to be older, good and experienced...

 

[jamsession2]

Mental and physical attributes grow with time and effort....thats why older teams are better overall....its ok to be young and good, but its better to be older, good and experienced...

Well Said.

 

[Dad2ze]

Last year of this Covid bullchit thank god, 26 year olds still in college

So you're against a 9 year senior? LOL!

 

[bmbritt]

But hasn’t Scheyer been attempting to do that ? How has it worked out ? Know that you have the top recruiting class to compete with for NIL money ?
I’ve said it before I’ll say it again . If their is a clear cut path to starting then Yes Scheyer can land top portal guys but when is that going to be the occasion at Duke ?
Duke will always get good back up players out the portal . But players want to go where they can play more minutes then their prior program . That ain’t going to happen at Duke unless they loose every player they go after . Look at next years class for example a bunch of 6’7” sg/wf players coming in . With Flagg and Oateick coming . You get Reeves and Stewart back what’s your punch line for playing time at any position other hen pg ? That’s if McCain and Foster don’t return with Blakes .

Hate to keep bring up Baylor Scheierman because we have kicked the tires on a couple big men that we missed on. Just don’t recall many or any guards & forwards that we’ve gone after hard. If teams like Tennessee who had their entire backcourt returning along with their two backups, but were still able to land Dalton Knecht (top Big Sky scorer) and Jordan Gainey (a top Big South guard) come to Knoxville then we shouldn’t have excuses.

Knecht has kicked a previous starter out of the starting lineup and Gainey has become their 6th man on the team, while bumping down their previous 6th man who also was an All Sec defender last year.

 

[DanTheDukeFan1982II]

It’s tough to be reasonable about this because frankly I’m not sure anyone understands how transfers can qualify academically to Duke or not. I don’t know if we are able to fish in the same pond as an SEC school.

Regardless, it was clear as day in April and May that the big weakness on this team was going to be an athletic bruising big and it came to fruition in literally the first big game.

 

[Mac9192]

Hate to keep bring up Baylor Scheierman because we have kicked the tires on a couple big men that we missed on. Just don’t recall many or any guards & forwards that we’ve gone after hard. If teams like Tennessee who had their entire backcourt returning along with their two backups, but were still able to land Dalton Knecht (top Big Sky scorer) and Jordan Gainey (a top Big South guard) come to Knoxville then we shouldn’t have excuses.

Knecht has kicked a previous starter out of the starting lineup and Gainey has become their 6th man on the team, while bumping down their previous 6th man who also was an All Sec defender last year.

It's impossible to get the best of the best h.s. kids, plus grab the best transfers available, especially in a year where we had 8 guys return. Almost any other program would drool over the possibility of landing the talent Duke does.

 

[DanTheDukeFan1982II]

It's impossible to get the best of the best h.s. kids, plus grab the best transfers available, especially in a year where we had 8 guys return. Almost any other program would drool over the possibility of landing the talent Duke does.

I agree that chemistry and keeping the team happy is important. But let’s not act like our center position consists of the best of the best. We have a transfer from Northwestern, and a 3/4 star (depending on the service) in Reeves who seems like a long term project. Stewart is a big recruit, but he isn’t even a true center.

Typically these are guys that have to wait their turn and do get recruited over annually for the success of the team. But they are being thrown into the fire.

 

[bmbritt]

I agree that chemistry and keeping the team happy is important. But let’s not act like our center position consists of the best of the best. We have a transfer from Northwestern, and a 3/4 star (depending on the service) in Reeves who seems like a long term project. Stewart is a big recruit, but he isn’t even a true center.

Typically these are guys that have to wait their turn and do get recruited over annually for the success of the team. But they are being thrown into the fire.

We need to start planning fairly early about who we want to target at the portal at Center. I’m not convinced that Ngongba comes in and starts on day 1, and unless Reeves comes on very strong during this season, you can’t bet your season on him.

This is one of those years that we can tell a portal Center that if you come here, you are starting and could be the difference between an Elite 8 team or a National Title. Might be in the same position with regards to a PG if Proctor, Foster and McCain all leave.

 

[DanTheDukeFan1982II]

We need to start planning fairly early about who we want to target at the portal at Center. I’m not convinced that Ngongba comes in and starts on day 1, and unless Reeves comes on very strong during this season, you can’t bet your season on him.

This is one of those years that we can tell a portal Center that if you come here, you are starting and could be the difference between an Elite 8 team or a National Title. Might be in the same position with regards to a PG if Proctor, Foster and McCain all leave.

Agreed. I’ve been harping since Flip announced he is returning that this could be a title team. We just have a massive weakness, and I worry it could be too big to cover.
Much like the Zion team was clearly a shooter short. Much like the 06 Redick team was forced to start a freshman Paulus at PG and play him 30mpg.

Those were before the portal. The portal is a thing now, we should use it to cover up our glaring holes.

 

[christophero]

Agreed. We had a historic amount of guys come back this year, we can't assume that will happen every year. (it won't) We also lost no one to transfer, which definitely will not happen every year. We kind of bet the farm on Young, Reeves and Stewart at the 5. Hopefully it will be enough. I would have sold Shedrick on being the missing piece on a title team. Maybe he wanted to be a focal point, but it doesn't sound like we tried that hard to get him. Maybe Flip back scared him off; I wasn't there. It would be a shame to waste 4 starters back on getting killed on the boards in the tournament again.. There are some big ***** teams out there.

 

[Mac9192]

I agree that chemistry and keeping the team happy is important. But let’s not act like our center position consists of the best of the best. We have a transfer from Northwestern, and a 3/4 star (depending on the service) in Reeves who seems like a long term project. Stewart is a big recruit, but he isn’t even a true center.

Typically these are guys that have to wait their turn and do get recruited over annually for the success of the team. But they are being thrown into the fire.

I don’t think many of y’all are taking into account the roster we had in place, which is why I say the posters on DI are trying to grab the prestigious “most spoiled fan base” award. Say Jon landed a good bruiser, or rim protector, where does he fit in? Would Stewart and Reeves get to develop? And we all know player development at Duke has been a sore spot among our fan base for years.
There’s also many here that think Reeves should be playing good minutes when healthy.

If there’s any area where the base could complain, it’s that we have 5 guards, and 4 of them are really skilled.

So where’s the minutes come from?

 

[christophero]

Well everyone complains that Young shouldn't be getting big minutes, so maybe there. And Reeves can't stay healthy. If Stewart becomes a force that should be enough. No doubt he will be good, but it may take a year. If the 2 freshman guards shoot the lights out we may not need to be formidable down low. Mitchell looks much better and is getting healthy.

 

[DanTheDukeFan1982II]

I don’t think many of y’all are taking into account the roster we had in place, which is why I say the posters on DI are trying to grab the prestigious “most spoiled fan base” award. Say Jon landed a good bruiser, or rim protector, where does he fit in? Would Stewart and Reeves get to develop? And we all know player development at Duke has been a sore spot among our fan base for years.
There’s also many here that think Reeves should be playing good minutes when healthy.

If there’s any area where the base could complain, it’s that we have 5 guards, and 4 of them are really skilled.

So where’s the minutes come from?

IMO that’s a very easy question: Reeves would redshirt or not play much at all this year as he is still recovering from injury and needs a lot of work. Young would be a situational type big man for when we need offense when Flip is in foul trouble (Young seems like a great teammate and would accept this role, I think you would agree) and Stewart could develop at his own pace, play more back up minutes behind Flip (his natural position) instead of playing the 5. Stewart is a multi-year guy whether he plays aton this year or not.

Our depth of guards (which has nothing to do with a portal 5) I have no idea what to do. It appears Schutt is redshirting which I think is smart.

I want to cut down the nets this year. If that means Stewart, Reeves, or Young progression long term is slowed down a bit, so be it.

 

[Mac9192]

IMO that’s a very easy question: Reeves would redshirt or not play much at all this year as he is still recovering from injury and needs a lot of work. Young would be a situational type big man for when we need offense when Flip is in foul trouble (Young seems like a great teammate and would accept this role, I think you would agree) and Stewart could develop at his own pace, play more back up minutes behind Flip (his natural position) instead of playing the 5. Stewart is a multi-year guy whether he plays aton this year or not.

Our depth of guards (which has nothing to do with a portal 5) I have no idea what to do. It appears Schutt is redshirting which I think is smart.

I want to cut down the nets this year. If that means Stewart, Reeves, or Young progression long term is slowed down a bit, so be it.

All of this is easy to say from the internet, and our recliner. Jon must have felt his team was the way he wanted it, or he wasn't able to land a big in the portal. But most teams would love to have a returning group of bigs (not counting Reeves) 7-0 245, 6-10 240, 6-9 230, with a freshmen 6-9 225. I can't answer why Reeves didn't redshirt. Maybe he didn't want to, and/or maybe the staff feels he can help this season. Remember some here thought he would be really good this season.

My guard comment does have some factor with overall playing time. We are deep (also talented) there, and there's only so many minutes overall to go around.

Not every championship team has a rim protector. Villanova says hello. I know they could shoot it, but they were also tough. Which imo, is the main ingredient missing from this Duke team.

 

[Liftee]

My feeling is first, Duke can only choose from a limited pool of transfer students due to limits in transferring credits; then, we need to find someone who doesn't mind sharing the ball and PT with 9 other top 100 players; then we need to find someone who is good enough to take minutes away from the guys we have (maybe 20-25 at most). Those guys apparently don't grow on trees and with NIL there may be more attractive places to play.

 

[GAAP]

Jon tried to get a big, but was not able to. Period.

 

[sheyduke]

Don’t understand why some posters don’t realize players add Duke simply for headlines and why not all players can transfer to Duke .
Simply look at Love to Michigan . It’s a roll of the dice in the portal as it is in recruiting.

 

[JimboSlice00]

I know Jon said he wouldn't recruit large classes with the hope to not have so many five star recruits come and go. Clearly the transfer portal hasn't been a big factor for us for one reason or the other.

What's the guy to do? When the offers go out to top 20 type of kids and they commit, do you say no? Of course not. It looks like we will be heavy on the recruiting trail rather than major players in the portal. It is what it is.

 

[christophero]

There is also international kids. A lot of teams are going that way as well. We have a great team, we have guys back. We're just a little unbalanced now; esp. with Reeves out. If this was the NBA we could trade one of our guards for a big man. thank God Flip's injury wasn't serious or we'd be screwed.

 

[youngman42]

Seems like the thread went a bunch of different directions. But I agree with the OP.

Yes, mental toughness is very important as someone noted above. But you can’t teach physicality. There’s no reason this team should not be more physically strong than it is. You can’t overcome someone else with the same mentality who also is much stronger than you are.

Take Ryan Young. I’m sure he’s a good dude. Seems like a nice guy. Academic all ACC. Very intelligent. But it’s patently obvious he hasn’t seen a real weight room in his college career. He’s 24 years old. He should be throwing around younger guys by just looking at them.

I just question the whole training staff on this point. Yes, we are young. But we have a number of second year players and some older guys. Blake’s looks like he has worked out. I’ve seen 18 year olds add 15 lbs of muscle in one year and be not only stronger but quicker and more athletic.

Either everyone Duke recruits hates lifting weights, or the training staff (which is shocking) has some antiquated view of weight training (like the old wives tale that it makes you less flexible or slows you down). All these returning players had 7 months to crush it. None of them need to work with NIL. They had some school but otherwise they needed to be hitting the weight room every morning to add muscle, with lots of protein and muscle building nutrients, to go with their basketball work.

Jon and the staff simply had to sit down with all the guys that returned and said, “Did you like getting tossed around on the court like rag dolls by Tennessee? Did you enjoy the outcome of that game? If not, then here is what we want to see from you. Here is the off season weight program …”

And if there is skepticism all they need to do is look at guys in the NBA. There is a reason every last vet looks much bigger than their first year. Obviously, they are young and not as advanced physically as 22-23-24 year olds (tho we have a couple). But still, with the right training regimen you can close that gap a bunch in one off season. And if they continued from March into this season they would keep getting stronger. Just 3 days a week for about an hour each day is enough.

 

[GAAP]

Difficult for teenagers to bulk up. Still maturing. Other teams are trotting out 22-23 year olds.

 

[Mac9192]

Yes, mental toughness is very important as someone noted above. But you can’t teach physicality. There’s no reason this team should not be more physically strong than it is. You can’t overcome someone else with the same mentality who also is much stronger than you are.

Take Ryan Young. I’m sure he’s a good dude. Seems like a nice guy. Academic all ACC. Very intelligent. But it’s patently obvious he hasn’t seen a real weight room in his college career. He’s 24 years old. He should be throwing around younger guys by just looking at them.

Enjoy your takes @youngman42 . Agree that getting stronger can only help. But I think it is more mental toughness than strength. We aren't bringing in kids that made all county, so talent isn't our issue. Tennessee, Michigan St, and other teams like them have to rely on being really physical to offset what they lack in talent.

That's why I think it's more mindset over anything else. Ryan Young is too nice. We all know he's a role player, but in my opinion, he needs to play with a little chip on his shoulder. Just not sure he's wired that way.

The most recent player that comes to mind for me in this talent vs strength was only 6-1, 190 lbs, but was tough as nails. Mr. Tyus Jones, aka Stones.

 

[christophero]

Theo was the perfect big man portal guy off the bench. That team was loaded, but do we even make the final four without him?