GhostOf301 said:

Do we think Tampon Tim is setting the LGTBQA++ community back by pretending to be a heterosexual instead of embracing who he is?

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Dattier said:

Irrelevant. The point is that Truman was not popular when he left office in 1953. Many scholars now disagree that he truly needed to drop the bombs, but his status in the top 10 is evidence that his decision is viewed within the context of the time he made it. Just like Washington and Jefferson get some leniency for owning slaves, Jackson gets some leniency for killing Native Americans, and FDR and LBJ get some leniency for social reforms that are still imperfect.

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Dattier said:

Don't be so emotional. That's not what I said. If that's how it makes you feel, my sympathies, but I'm not taking responsibility for your emotions.

We're all imperfect fathers, including me. If you're scared of public schools indoctrinating your kids because of that specific reason, it is indeed one of your parental shortcomings, and what you're afraid of is allowing your kids to think for themselves, which is what critical thinking skills are for in the first place. If that's not you... if you're not the hit dog... don't bark. If it IS you... do better.

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KDSTONE said:

So now we’re all bad fathers too? Your arrogance and condescension knows no bounds

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Dattier said:

What reasons would those be?
That the tests are often created without regard for regional knowledge like info on the beach or snow?
That the tests are created for profiting the companies that make them more so than for actual student learning?
That what a kid has done all year long in a variety of learning modes is a better indicator of what they know than a 3-hour session with a couple 2-minute breaks, no talking, no moving, no eating or drinking?
Who the heck do you think is the actual expert on what a kid knows in school if not the teacher?

Why do you think people go into teaching? Because we hate kids and want to do something easy? Are you really that stupid?

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Dattier said:

What do you care? I'm not even a real American to you because I vote differently than you. Your words. You are one of the biggest bad faith actors here. Learn to police your extremist crap before trying to make me make any effort toward some common ground.

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Mac9192 said:

You have glimpses of showing good faith, then WHAM! back to the Datt we are sadly more used to. Your comment on "y'all" being controlled by emotion? This is really rich coming from you. If we're honest, aren't we all here controlled too much by emotion?

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KDSTONE said:

Truman’s in the top 10. He did what he thought was necessary at the time re Hiroshima and Nagasaki and he saved American lives no doubt. A lot of these same profs, however, likely accuse Israel of genocide and they put Truman in the top 10. You couldn’t make this sh up

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Dattier said:

You just did exactly what I said you've been doing: sticking to your spoon-fed rightwing talking points w/o showsing any intellectual effort. To get me to stop saying you are stupid, stop being stupid. I've been very clear on how you can do that. It has nothing to do w/ having a different opinion.

They're conservative scholars, not conservative politicians or snowflakes. They aren't controlled by their emotions like y'all are here.

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KDSTONE said:

A lot of teachers hate standardized testing, because it holds them accountable. You know, it measures whether the students have actually learned what they were supposed to. Otherwise, you’re just taking the teacher’s word for it. No mystery why teachers hate it, but not for the bull sh reasons they give.

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KDSTONE said:

So now we’re all bad fathers too? Your arrogance and condescension knows no bounds

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KDSTONE said:

Right. These “conservatives” are undoubtedly in the Liz Cheney/ Mitt Romney mold. You’re not fooling anyone with this nonsense. Here’s a goal for you today: try to go the rest of the day without calling anyone stupid. If you can’t, you may be due for another mental health break

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Dattier said:

You really ought to spend more time defending yourself for admitting the bold. I would say that standardized testing and political interference impedes how well we teach critical thinking skills, but that's the goal, yes. (Don't both sides of the political aisle agree that standardized testing has damaged schools?) If instead of teaching your children critical thinking you're instead teaching them that what you say goes, and it's your way or the highway, and that as long as you're under my roof yada yada yada, and that in this family we believe yada yada yada, than any critical thinking they pick up in school is going to feel like a threat to your puny mind.

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christophero said:

Why do you hate the Mets? I get Yankee hate.

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Dattier said:

You really ought to spend more time defending yourself for admitting the bold. I would say that standardized testing and political interference impedes how well we teach critical thinking skills, but that's the goal, yes. (Don't both sides of the political aisle agree that standardized testing has damaged schools?) If instead of teaching your children critical thinking you're instead teaching them that what you say goes, and it's your way or the highway, and that as long as you're under my roof yada yada yada, and that in this family we believe yada yada yada, than any critical thinking they pick up in school is going to feel like a threat to your puny mind.

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Dattier said:

I did a little deeper digging. (Don't worry; it was fun.) There's a link in the article to the rankings themselves.
Here are some numbers:
* Conservatives and liberals agree on 7 of the top 10, 18 of the top 20, and all of the bottom 7, in some order.
* 32 of the 45 (remember, Grover Cleveland counts twice as both the 22nd and 24th President) were ranked within 3 spots of each other, from conservatives to liberals.
* More recent Presidents had the biggest disparity in ranking from one group to the next. In reverse order, with the difference in parentheses: Biden (17), Trump (just 2), Obama (7), GW Bush (14), Clinton (just 2, but w/ conservatives ranking him better!), GHW Bush (11), Reagan (12), Carter (just 1, w/ both in the top 20!), Ford (just 3), Nixon (6), LBJ (5).
* From LBJ, you have to skip the four before him back to Hoover, and right before him, Coolidge, to get a difference greater than 3 (6 each).
* From Coolidge -- the 30th President -- you have to go all the way back to Garfield -- the 20th President -- to find the next difference higher than three (9).
* Of the first 19 Presidents, only Grant at #18 was higher than 4 (6), and only Van Buren at #8 and Jackson at #7 were as high as that.

A few observations, then...
* It would be easy to conclude that we're living in more polarized times than any time in US history at least since the Civil War. I tend to agree, but not because of these numbers. I'm guessing it's more due to how things settle over time. Like, 50 years from now, those same discrepancies probably will have shrunk some. GW Bush has already risen from last place among liberals at the time he left office to 32nd. I suspect he might climb another spot or 3, and he may drop a few from 18th for conservatives. Truman went from pretty unpopular at the time he left office to top 10. Wilson has dropped from the top 10 to 15th or 16th and I suspect he will continue to drop sharply. Neither Eisenhower nor LBJ were anywhere near the top 10 when I was a kid.
* Y'all are speaking from emotion and recency bias when you claim Biden is the worst ever ever ever by far, and that Obama is the next worst ever ever ever by far. Conservative scholars -- scholars, mind you, not message board keyboard warriors and social media blowhards -- rank Biden 30th, 13 spots above where they themselves rank Trump. (I'm not sure where I would rank Biden, but I suspect it would be closer to 30th than the 13th liberals have him at in this study.)
* You can disagree with any or all of these rankings. I certainly disagree with many. You're a hypocrite and an idiot to question the integrity of the people participating and compiling them... when all you do is trot out your spoon-fed rightwing talking points about mainstream media and socialist educators. Show your receipts or shut up or just keep announcing your idiocy to the world as is. If this were a proverbial d***-measuring contest, they just lay their junk out on the table while you cover your crotches in shame and back away claiming you're bigger. Show. Your. Work. (Proverbially).

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Dattier said:

I did a little deeper digging. (Don't worry; it was fun.) There's a link in the article to the rankings themselves.
Here are some numbers:
* Conservatives and liberals agree on 7 of the top 10, 18 of the top 20, and all of the bottom 7, in some order.
* 32 of the 45 (remember, Grover Cleveland counts twice as both the 22nd and 24th President) were ranked within 3 spots of each other, from conservatives to liberals.
* More recent Presidents had the biggest disparity in ranking from one group to the next. In reverse order, with the difference in parentheses: Biden (17), Trump (just 2), Obama (7), GW Bush (14), Clinton (just 2, but w/ conservatives ranking him better!), GHW Bush (11), Reagan (12), Carter (just 1, w/ both in the top 20!), Ford (just 3), Nixon (6), LBJ (5).
* From LBJ, you have to skip the four before him back to Hoover, and right before him, Coolidge, to get a difference greater than 3 (6 each).
* From Coolidge -- the 30th President -- you have to go all the way back to Garfield -- the 20th President -- to find the next difference higher than three (9).
* Of the first 19 Presidents, only Grant at #18 was higher than 4 (6), and only Van Buren at #8 and Jackson at #7 were as high as that.

A few observations, then...
* It would be easy to conclude that we're living in more polarized times than any time in US history at least since the Civil War. I tend to agree, but not because of these numbers. I'm guessing it's more due to how things settle over time. Like, 50 years from now, those same discrepancies probably will have shrunk some. GW Bush has already risen from last place among liberals at the time he left office to 32nd. I suspect he might climb another spot or 3, and he may drop a few from 18th for conservatives. Truman went from pretty unpopular at the time he left office to top 10. Wilson has dropped from the top 10 to 15th or 16th and I suspect he will continue to drop sharply. Neither Eisenhower nor LBJ were anywhere near the top 10 when I was a kid.
* Y'all are speaking from emotion and recency bias when you claim Biden is the worst ever ever ever by far, and that Obama is the next worst ever ever ever by far. Conservative scholars -- scholars, mind you, not message board keyboard warriors and social media blowhards -- rank Biden 30th, 13 spots above where they themselves rank Trump. (I'm not sure where I would rank Biden, but I suspect it would be closer to 30th than the 13th liberals have him at in this study.)
* You can disagree with any or all of these rankings. I certainly disagree with many. You're a hypocrite and an idiot to question the integrity of the people participating and compiling them... when all you do is trot out your spoon-fed rightwing talking points about mainstream media and socialist educators. Show your receipts or shut up or just keep announcing your idiocy to the world as is. If this were a proverbial d***-measuring contest, they just lay their junk out on the table while you cover your crotches in shame and back away claiming you're bigger. Show. Your. Work. (Proverbially).

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KDSTONE said:

I skipped most of that, but I caught the last paragraph. You’re absolutely right. If there’s one thing our public schools are famous for, it’s teaching critical thinking skills. Are you high?

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GhostOf301 said:

Jesus, Datt. It’s just a random tweet. Not a source. Lol.

JD Vance is weird .

Source:

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Dattier said:

K-12 public schools an ivory tower? lol

As an educator with more than 28 years of experience, I've sent students to universities, community colleges, trade schools, the military, job programs, the job market, the arts, etc. I've long recognized and respected different forms of intelligence and that one-size does not fit all. I'm not at all exceptional in this regard when it comes to public school educators. We know how messed up standardized testing is. We know there's an appalling lack of vocational ed. We know and respect that a 4-year university education isn't for everyone.

I'm the last person here who would claim my multiple degrees are a sign of my intelligence. My perseverance, grit, and certain knowledge, certainly, but not my intelligence. And I'm confident of the intelligence I have while aware of its limits.

Ironically, it's conservatives intimidated by educational institutions who lack respect for different forms of intelligence. You inherently distrust and fear academic intelligence and therefore disrespect and insult it as a means of bringing it down to your level.

Teaching critical thinking is what leads to questioning the status quo, not indoctrination. Teach someone critical thinking skills and they stop obeying blindly. That's why conservative parents hate public school and that's why conservatives hate and fear academia.

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Dattier said:

The article is from the conservative Cato Institute offering valid criticism of presidential rankings, as I said.

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GhostOf301 said:

Critical thinking = thinking like a progressive Democrat.

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Dattier said:

K-12 public schools an ivory tower? lol

As an educator with more than 28 years of experience, I've sent students to universities, community colleges, trade schools, the military, job programs, the job market, the arts, etc. I've long recognized and respected different forms of intelligence and that one-size does not fit all. I'm not at all exceptional in this regard when it comes to public school educators. We know how messed up standardized testing is. We know there's an appalling lack of vocational ed. We know and respect that a 4-year university education isn't for everyone.

I'm the last person here who would claim my multiple degrees are a sign of my intelligence. My perseverance, grit, and certain knowledge, certainly, but not my intelligence. And I'm confident of the intelligence I have while aware of its limits.

Ironically, it's conservatives intimidated by educational institutions who lack respect for different forms of intelligence. You inherently distrust and fear academic intelligence and therefore disrespect and insult it as a means of bringing it down to your level.

Teaching critical thinking is what leads to questioning the status quo, not indoctrination. Teach someone critical thinking skills and they stop obeying blindly. That's why conservative parents hate public school and that's why conservatives hate and fear academia.

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