The Carters

Discussion in 'Duke Hoops Open Forum - Free' started by IPSYCHOSIS, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. IPSYCHOSIS

    IPSYCHOSIS Cameron Crazy
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    anybody as annoyed as I am?
     
  2. timo0402

    timo0402 Moderator
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  3. DukeRulesBasketball

    DukeRulesBasketball Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
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    Yea I certainly don’t like it!
     
  4. DukeRulesBasketball

    DukeRulesBasketball Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
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  5. SWEc/o95

    SWEc/o95 Cameron Crazy
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    That article is true. You play into the system. A lot of guys don't get to show their full potential in college especially at Duke. So many good players on one team. It's not like Dennis Smith at NC State when you are a lottery pick playing with a bunch of scrubs.

    Did anyone see Vince Carter turning into the player he was in the NBA?
     
  6. SWEc/o95

    SWEc/o95 Cameron Crazy
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    I don't take it as criticism at all.
     
  7. Mac9192

    Mac9192 Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
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    He's being honest, and telling the truth. He was put to the back burner, so to speak, once Bagley came. So was Duval. He was a good team player, but could have had much better stats. Great kid.
     
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  8. PatrickYates

    PatrickYates All Conference
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    If we are brutally honest with ourselves, the addition of Bagley was poorly executed. He was, ultimately, unnecessary. Playing 3-4 out, and 1 in, would have worked better given the rest of the roster.
    .
    That is, of course, in hindsight. If Allen and Trent had been top tier 3pt shooters, and TD had been less awful at shooting, and slightly better at finishing at the rim, the 2 big system would have lead to a FF appearance.
    .
    In hindsight, knowing that Trent and Allen weren't elite shooters, and that TD was worst-case-scenario as a perimeter shooter, the 2 bigs at a time was an obvious let down.
     
  9. PatrickYates

    PatrickYates All Conference
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    In the Carter's defense, ditto TD, I'm not sure either Carter would have chosen Duke if he'd known that Bags would show up. I'm all but certain TD wouldn't have gone to a school likely to feature 2 predominantly low post players.
     
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  10. FearTheBeard

    FearTheBeard Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
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    That’s the problem with having so many top 10 recruits in the same class. There is still only one ball on the court. No doubt TD would have been the leading scorer on a lesser team. Put him on Northwestern and he probably averages 18-20 ppg on 15-20 shots/game.

    There are only so many shots to go around so of course a team full of 5 stars is going to have players that don’t get a chance to showcase their full potential. The trade off is going to a school like Duke and getting the publicity of having damn near every game on national TV.
     
  11. Mac9192

    Mac9192 Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
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    Agree Beard. It's why I just can't buy the phrase "take the talent and figure it out." You CAN have too much talent.
     
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  12. PatrickYates

    PatrickYates All Conference
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    You can't have too much talent. You can have talent that doesn't fit. Further, TD and Carter and Trent would have excelled in a 1 big man system. Certer is more of a natural college 5, and would have fit K's small ball inclinations to an absolute T. He was a solid defender by Feb. A PnR O with TD rolling to the basket with plenty of kickouts to Allen and Trent (or AOC off the bench) would have gone GANGBUSTERS. We probably don't finish above UVA in the conf standings, but we darn sure don't finish so far behind them, and we probably at least play for the ACCT title. That gets us a 1 seed.
    .
    As well as Nova played vs KU in the FF, we can't beat them. We could have beaten the Nova team that showed up on Monday. Not saying we definitely do, but it was possible (unlike that bomb dropping group of domestic terrorists that ran KU off the court with 5 mins left in the first half).
     
  13. PatrickYates

    PatrickYates All Conference
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    Further, I want to be clear. I think there definitely strategies that would have worked better for last year's roster, as it was constructed. The staff just didn't implement them.
     
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  14. IPSYCHOSIS

    IPSYCHOSIS Cameron Crazy
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    I understand it may be some truth to it . I just can’t or I guess when you combine what his mother said then hear this it’s just like??? How or why did you come to Duke. It’s like have you heard a positive about duke from either? I get (he) probally wasn’t trying to criticize duke, but in my sports anaylist mind interpretation lol he pretty much said it’s Ks fault we lost and didn’t play better and to their strengths . When in fact you couldn’t execute your strengths and play like you wanted because you couldn’t and were behind a more talented player . Is the nba going to be different? Lol . Just like Duval. He couldn’t play to his strengths because he couldn’t lol. He basically in my interpretation said K has his way and you go there and do what he wants . It’s like K went to zone just because he wanted to or something and not because they couldn’t play man to man . Imo K tried to adapt to his players strengths the best way he could . That’s trying to win!? It just looks bad for Duke, and I’m probally looking to hard at this but like I said when you combine what his mother said I’m annoyed . I just take it as a form of blame and excuses. K did exactly what he said and playing to their strengths . (In college) That’s what you do when you try to win....I don’t get it....it’s like instead of getting better in a year, you were held back a year, if you play better in the NBA. Solve the problem and just go to the D league to begin with then .
     
    14 IPSYCHOSIS, Jun 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  15. dachampishere2

    dachampishere2 All American
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    There actually was nothing wrong with having a two big system. The problem was we didn’t run the right things offensively at time to take advantage of it. Trevon suffered the most because he was a downhill point guard. He wasn’t allowed to attack enough in the pick and roll. We could’ve ran the pick and roll with Duval and Bagley often with Carter in the short corner and Allen/Trent on the wings. No one would be able to stop that. We had Duval standing on the perimeter majority of the game. Coach K didn’t let him do his thing and get comfortable. When the point guard isn’t comfortable then you’re in trouble. Look at Rondo and the Pelicans. Rondo ran the show the entire year. Two bigs didn’t hurt them offensively. Defensively we should’ve played a more packed in lineup instead of ball pressure defense. Guarding out to 40 feet spread the floor which put our bigs at disadvantages. We didn’t protect them on defense enough.
     
  16. PatrickYates

    PatrickYates All Conference
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    Part of the Carter's current actions are very understandable lobbying by the family. There are a few great landing places for Carter around the area where he is currently projected. Some spots are better than others. I'm sure they are trying to max out his draft value. If a few teams, or even just A team, pass on him, he might fall, albeit barely. Far more devastating from his POV is that he'd likely go from a good situation to a not so good situation.
     
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  17. IPSYCHOSIS

    IPSYCHOSIS Cameron Crazy
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    The major problem was the PG play and defense . K did what he could trying to adapt .
     
  18. lkc1234

    lkc1234 Recruit
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  19. Liftee

    Liftee Starter
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    So Carter got to play on national TV every week, he got to shoot 3s whenever he felt like it, he practiced against future pros every day and coached by perhaps the GOAT, and he's going to be a lottery pick.

    He could have attended Harvard, never been on national or even regional TV, could have been triple teamed every possession, and probably made to stand under the basket and score against 6'6" centers the entire season.

    I'd say things worked out pretty well for Mr. Carter and family. It's just that when you decide to play at a top program, you aren't going to be showcased every game.

    I love Wendell and his game. I wish the very best for him. He will represent Duke very well.
     
  20. IPSYCHOSIS

    IPSYCHOSIS Cameron Crazy
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    Again Duval wasn’t able to do that because he proved over and over he couldn’t and is nowhere close to Rondo.... terrible comparison( besides shooting)
     
    20 IPSYCHOSIS, Jun 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  21. dachampishere2

    dachampishere2 All American
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    The Carters are telling the truth but people like for you to sugarcoat things. Going to college is a waste of time for someone that’s definitely going to the NBA. Lack of payment makes it even worse when there are people getting richer off of you. Wendell is speaking truth because obviously when you play with great players you have to sacrifice some of your game for the team. We see this often. Donovan Mitchell was nowhere near this good in Louisville and that’s because the system held him back. He blossomed once he could show his full skill set
     
  22. IPSYCHOSIS

    IPSYCHOSIS Cameron Crazy
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    Won’t he have to sacrifice in the nba lol . So Ks system held Carter back ?
     
  23. dbav

    dbav Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
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    The only problem I see is a 24 hour news cycle.
     
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  24. Quavarius

    Quavarius Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
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  25. Quavarius

    Quavarius Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
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    Great! Let all of the talent go to other schools! What will we complain about then?
     
  26. IPSYCHOSIS

    IPSYCHOSIS Cameron Crazy
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    I’m just sick of this “college is slavery” . “He got held back” bologna . Change the rule, and in the meantime go to the DLeauge, overseas whatever , or stop complaining . Not just talking about the Carters .Whole situation
     
    26 IPSYCHOSIS, Jun 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
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  27. hart2chesson

    hart2chesson Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
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    The article title is misleading as Carter really doesnt criticize Duke specifically, but more directed toward the college game in general. No question however, his numbers are up considerably if "Bags" goes elsewhere.

    We'll never know how last year's Duke team had done minus Bags, and played Dominican exhibitions with the roster seemingly already set. Thats not meant as a slight to MB (he was great on offense), but do the other guys become more cohesive per chemistry??? One of life's great unanswered questions....

    OFC
     
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  28. Mac9192

    Mac9192 Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
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    Now Q, here you go. Where did I ever say don't take talent? Someone has to accept the role player position, and this team's role players sat the bench.
    Look at the 15 team. Okafor was the focal point. Yet he loved to pass from the post as much as he did score. Then you had Amile and Matt. Great ROLE players. This isn't rocket science.
    I would love to have had Bagley on a different Duke team. I understand the argument for taking him, I just see it differently. Duke already had 3 one and done's plus a former 5 star sophomore in Bolden, and a senior that was All American 2 years earlier. We got greedy, and never saw the team that we hoped for in preseason. Eight losses, a distant second place regular season finish, no acc tournament title, lost 2 out of 3 to our rival, in a year where we thought we would mop the floor with them. Then we beat three weak teams to finally get beat by the sorriest Kansas team in years.

    You've never heard me post about not wanting one and done's. I just don't want 4-5 at one time though. Hope we succeed this season.
     
  29. Quavarius

    Quavarius Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
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    Very misleading, but anything about Duke is meant to get likes and clicks. Rivals read that as a slight against Duke/K when it wasn't taken that way.

    No matter what Wendell or Mama Carter say now it will be scrutinized, even though they've said similar things to others in the past.
     
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  30. Quavarius

    Quavarius Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
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    I'm disappointed at how the season ended as well but are we really having this discussion if Grayson's jumper goes down? If Duval doesn't give up the game tying 3? If Carter's block is a called a charge? If we weren't playing in Kansas' backyard?

    Carter, as great as he is, was in foul trouble a lot this season while Bolden was injured for much of the season. We probably lose a lot more games without Bagley. I know hindsight is 20/20 but sheesh.
     
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  31. Mac9192

    Mac9192 Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
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    That one game described our year. We never got comfortable with this group. The PK80 was a sign of the year ahead. Never could step on anyone's throat. Duval was out sync. Look how much better Allen played without Bagley. Numbers don't lie. The only time the team looked in command was the 5 games he didn't play. Yeah, maybe the talent wasn't the best during that stretch, but who else beat Clemson at Clemson?
     
    31 Mac9192, Jun 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  32. dachampishere2

    dachampishere2 All American
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    You don’t know what you’re talking about. We rarely ran pick and roll. Duke was one of the teams with the lowest percentage of pick and rolls. That’s not Coach K style. Only time we have really ran pick and roll consistently is the games he “don’t call any plays and let the players play”.
     
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  33. dachampishere2

    dachampishere2 All American
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    The system didn’t hold him back as much as the college game holding him back. The spacing is much different in the pro game. He will be able to do more in college because he’ll have more room to operate. People used to sag on our bigs because Grayson and Tre weren’t consistent shooters this year
     
  34. acc hoops

    acc hoops All American
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    Too much talent or coaches holding him back has little to do with his shooting air ball from a few feet from the basket at the end of Kansas game.
     
  35. PatrickYates

    PatrickYates All Conference
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    We were supposed to have two good shooters and 1 supbar shooter. Granted, TD was on the low end of expectations.
    .
    Trent and Allen were both well below expectations WRT perimeter shooting.
    .
    TD would have excelled in a PnR scheme, but didn't run that, and our two bigs basically hovered near the basket, eliminating anything resembling a driving lane. If the shooters had been real threats, it might have drawn some attention away from the post, but they didn't.
    .
    In our final game, TD was probably our best player on the court. But Allen and Trent missed shots. Open shots. A few wide open, why bother guarding them, shots.
    .
    Sure, TD wasn't the stud we hoped for at PG. But our nominal shooters were mediocre from 3, at best, all year long.
     
  36. PatrickYates

    PatrickYates All Conference
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    The Carters are very critical of the rule forcing kids to go to college.
    .
    For good reason. If he'd been eligible out of HS, Carter was a top 5 pick. After college, he's in the 5-10 range, and probably closer to 10 than 5. So he's out several hundred thousand dollars by being forced to go to college (which was the intent of the whole thing, after all).
     
  37. IPSYCHOSIS

    IPSYCHOSIS Cameron Crazy
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    Lol his styles not playing zone.either...if we ran the pick and roll with Duval, and I’m the defender, I’m going under it every time.....Again you’re not getting it . K did what he did because he had too! You want to blame something on K blame his recruiting . Wish Duval the best but he wasn’t as advertised and K had to adjust. Same with the D. end of story.
     
    37 IPSYCHOSIS, Jun 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  38. IPSYCHOSIS

    IPSYCHOSIS Cameron Crazy
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    If I remember correctly for a long time Trent led in 3 point percentage Acc...could be wrong . I disagree with (well) below shooting expectations . Now toward the end of the year Trent cooled . It’s not like teams were just leaving our shooters open either .
     
  39. Quavarius

    Quavarius Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
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    Remember, Clemson lost one of its key players in the Florida State game prior to Duke coming to town. That 5 game stretch also included a favorable schedule and the switch primarily to zone. LOTS of things contributed to the 5-0 (also Duke went 4-0 without Bagley, he came back for the Syracuse game). We lost the next game at VA Tech on a last second shot (lost by 1).
     
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  40. timo0402

    timo0402 Moderator
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    Call me when that quote hurts our recruiting. Don’t over think it. Have no problems with what he said. He basically said playing in college where there is a lack of spacing and playing with other really good players limits what you can show. He’s right And i don’t see it as a shot at Duke.
     

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