DRAFT NIGHT

[timo0402]

I'm hardly a basketball affictionado....but I could tell Kyle Singler wasn't a center and I can tell that today Frank Jackson isn't a point guard. Hopefully he can become somewhat steady there....because right now he's undersized to be just a shooting guard in the NBA.[/QUOTE]

This was my exact thought and frustration when he stayed in the draft. He and his dad felt like Duvals presence on the team as the primary PG, hindered Franks development. But to this point frank isn't a point guard, he's just not. Nothing he did this year screamed I'm a point guard or even suggested it. What he is, is an extremely talented and athletic guard who perhaps eventually could turn himself into a solid combo guard. I hope that happens. But this myth that we would have played better with him all year at the point is just that, it's not actually based on a whole lot of fact- the staff played to Franks strengths which are his ability to score and create offense for himself, get into the lane and get to the rim. Knock down open shots and take guys one on one: For a freshman, he was very good at that and got better. As are most freshmen guards who play a lot of minutes he also had some turnover problems and often got himself into foul trouble and made head scratching plays, that's ok though because he's still learning.

I felt next year next to Duval not only would that accentuate his talents, highlight his game and athleticism but would also allow him to play a decent amount of lead guard minutes as well- a similar situation as Jason and Chris Duhon when they played together. They had other ideas and that's their prerogative and we'll never know how it would have turned out. I thought they would have been a dynamite backcourt along with Grayson and Trent, and he could have gone lottery potentially.

 

[hart2chesson]

I'm hardly a basketball affictionado....but I could tell Kyle Singler wasn't a center and I can tell that today Frank Jackson isn't a point guard. Hopefully he can become somewhat steady there....because right now he's undersized to be just a shooting guard in the NBA.

This was my exact thought and frustration when he stayed in the draft. He and his dad felt like Duvals presence on the team as the primary PG, hindered Franks development. But to this point frank isn't a point guard, he's just not. Nothing he did this year screamed I'm a point guard or even suggested it. What he is, is an extremely talented and athletic guard who perhaps eventually could turn himself into a solid combo guard. I hope that happens. But this myth that we would have played better with him all year at the point is just that, it's not actually based on a whole lot of fact- the staff played to Franks strengths which are his ability to score and create offense for himself, get into the lane and get to the rim. Knock down open shots and take guys one on one: For a freshman, he was very good at that and got better. As are most freshmen guards who play a lot of minutes he also had some turnover problems and often got himself into foul trouble and made head scratching plays, that's ok though because he's still learning.

I felt next year next to Duval not only would that accentuate his talents, highlight his game and athleticism but would also allow him to play a decent amount of lead guard minutes as well- a similar situation as Jason and Chris Duhon when they played together. They had other ideas and that's their prerogative and we'll never know how it would have turned out. I thought they would have been a dynamite backcourt along with Grayson and Trent, and he could have gone lottery potentially.[/QUOTE]

Next year's team w/Duval,Jackson,Allen and Trent??? The idea of it SOUNDS GREAT, but Frank and his dad would have never gone for it, and I think we're potentially looking at too much tension and not enough basketballs....K has already said he wants the ball in Tre's hands a lot. I think we may be ok, because I think Frank would have wanted that PG slot.You guys do a great job, and I am much farther from a "basketball aficionado," but I have serious doubts about it from a chemistry perspective.

It reminds me of Billy McCaffery transferring to Vandy after the '91 team won it all. Billy wanted to move from wing to point, because like Frank he felt he had a better chance in NBA as pt guard.(Hurley was entrenched at point),We moved Thomas Hill to Billy's slot and didnt miss a beat. Billy went onto play point at Vandy, put up great numbers, but never made it in NBA...OFC

 

[dukiejay]

Duke didn't have a point guard last season. That was plain as day. K was going to do everything in his power to make sure it didn't happen two years in a row.

Besides, if Frank wasn't good from a chemistry standpoint, then we're better off without him....and that hurts to say. He had All-American potential.

 

[Mac9192]

This past team had no true point guard, we all know that. Allen was the most unselfish guy on the court, but he's not a point guard. Kennard definitely wasn't, and Matt, well he played hard and represented Duke really good, but he was the most offensively limited of the bunch. That leaves Jackson, the best ball handler of the bunch, and the best athlete on the team. The staff tried the 'Grayson at point' project, that really didn't work. He was really out of position, but did want to get others involved though. Like I said, maybe the team was doomed anyway, but Frank truly didn't become the team's 'point guard' until the last of the season. Sure if you go by his a/t numbers, they're not good, but look at the competition Duke was playing.
What if he had been able to work on driving the car from the start, and not right before the ACC tournament? I'm not saying he would have been a Duke great at that position, but I find it real hard to believe that a kid as talented as he is, couldn't have improved some at that position.
As to him leaving early, and folks saying he would have gotten minutes and scoring, that's true, but someone would have been left out. As much as I wish he would have hung around to watch him shine, I think this upcoming team will be better without the crowded backcourt. This allows the guys coming in, two 5 star guards, plus a 5 star senior to play good minutes and get a good flow. That plus the fact the front court has a good set of players to rotate with, to me you have the recipe for one of K's dangerous teams. I think the odds are really good for everyone to buy in and know their roles, which isn't something this past team understood. A different scenario as Sulaimon, but Jackson leaving may be better that a lot think, but Duke could get the same result as 2015.

 

[dukiejay]

What if he had been able to work on driving the car from the start, and not right before the ACC tournament? I'm not saying he would have been a Duke great at that position, but I find it real hard to believe that a kid as talented as he is, couldn't have improved some at that position.

I pretty much agree with everything you said except this part. Frank played a lot of point guard the entire season, not just the last month of the year. For me, it all comes down to Frank not being a point guard and not changing that overnight. We hear the word 'development' a lot when talking about players. Often times that happens over the course of a career, and not in just six to eight months. I thought the Duke staff maximized what they had on the wing (down low is an entirely different animal, thought). Frank was a shining light, IMO, last season. He was asked to do something that didn't play to one of his strengths. That's hard on veteran players, let alone a freshman. Frank is just better with the ball in hands creating offense for himself rather than facilitating. Players like him in the past have carved out niches in the NBA and played a long time doing that. Think Patty Mills, or going back even farther, someone like Vinnie Johnson. We know he can score....it's just a long shot he's ever a true, distributing point guard.

 

[Mac9192]

I pretty much agree with everything you said except this part. Frank played a lot of point guard the entire season, not just the last month of the year. For me, it all comes down to Frank not being a point guard and not changing that overnight. We hear the word 'development' a lot when talking about players. Often times that happens over the course of a career, and not in just six to eight months. I thought the Duke staff maximized what they had on the wing (down low is an entirely different animal, thought). Frank was a shining light, IMO, last season. He was asked to do something that didn't play to one of his strengths. That's hard on veteran players, let alone a freshman. Frank is just better with the ball in hands creating offense for himself rather than facilitating. Players like him in the past have carved out niches in the NBA and played a long time doing that. Think Patty Mills, or going back even farther, someone like Vinnie Johnson. We know he can score....it's just a long shot he's ever a true, distributing point guard.

Fair enough

 

[hart2chesson]

I guess my thoughts are last year's club was more of a team that worked on ISO more so maybe than any in recent past. I look at Frank's ability to drive and score the ball as a more dangerous weapon than Matt in that particular sense.

I am not talking about FJ in terms of Hurley, Wojo, Ammaker, Tyus,etc or any of our vintage pg's in the PUREST SENSE....Whatever, it makes for good debate, lol! OFC

 

[dukiejay]

I guess my thoughts are last year's club was more of a team that worked on ISO more so maybe than any in recent past. I look at Frank's ability to drive and score the ball as a more dangerous weapon than Matt in that particular sense.

I am not talking about FJ in terms of Hurley, Wojo, Ammaker, Tyus,etc or any of our vintage pg's in the PUREST SENSE....Whatever, it makes for good debate, lol! OFC

Frank was incredibly valuable. I'm not suggesting otherwise. We were more ISO-burden the previous year, imo, once Amile went down.

I just think Matt's intangibles have been underscored by some, and I feel as though I've proven that in this thread. Obviously we all wished he was a more versatile offensive weapon, but even still his value has been proved. That's all I'm saying.

 

[DukefanKY]

Matt wasn't what I hoped he would be before arriving on campus, but, I can remember some big shots that he hit in games that maybe we don't win without him. I am glad he chose Duke.

 

[hart2chesson]

Frank was incredibly valuable. I'm not suggesting otherwise. We were more ISO-burden the previous year, imo, once Amile went down.

I just think Matt's intangibles have been underscored by some, and I feel as though I've proven that in this thread. Obviously we all wished he was a more versatile offensive weapon, but even still his value has been proved. That's all I'm saying.

I have no argument w/you on Matt's intangibles. Lowest in scoring per game, and I won't remember him as a great playmaker or even the greatest defender I've seen (I feel he was a good defender, but not great). However he was a GLUE type guy every team should have....One of the great moments and testaments to Matt's intangibles to me was him in agony after injuring his ankle 1st half at UNC IN '16 game.There he was willing his team to win while in agony.....I think a freshman Luke Kennard played the entire 2nd half and scored about 15 as we beat UNC....Despite his pain Matty was every bit still engaged....
#SpecialTimes

OFC

 

[jwill133]

Matt wasn't what I hoped he would be before arriving on campus, but, I can remember some big shots that he hit in games that maybe we don't win without him. I am glad he chose Duke.

We don't beat Gonzaga in 2015 without Matt making it rain.

 

[hart2chesson]

We don't beat Gonzaga in 2015 without Matt making it rain.

Will NEVER forget that performance by Matty. I think it underscores how he was at his most effective when Duke had its BEST TEAM. He felt less pressure because just think of the defense his other teammates were getting...No question it was his shining moment and w/o it we dont cut down nets.

OFC

 

[skysdad]

Just a note. The NBA R.O.Y. was a 2nd round draft choice in 2016. I thought he would have been a 1st rounder last year but he fell to the second round so Frank going in the second round or any one of those chosen could be make a major impact next year. There was another Duke player that fell to the second round a few years ago that had a very solid NBA career. Remember Carlos Boozer. OFC

 

[hart2chesson]

Just a note. The NBA R.O.Y. was a 2nd round draft choice in 2016. I thought he would have been a 1st rounder last year but he fell to the second round so Frank going in the second round or any one of those chosen could be make a major impact next year. There was another Duke player that fell to the second round a few years ago that had a very solid NBA career. Remember Carlos Boozer. OFC

Excellent post Sky!!

OFC

 

[dukiejay]

Just a note. The NBA R.O.Y. was a 2nd round draft choice in 2016. I thought he would have been a 1st rounder last year but he fell to the second round so Frank going in the second round or any one of those chosen could be make a major impact next year. There was another Duke player that fell to the second round a few years ago that had a very solid NBA career. Remember Carlos Boozer. OFC

Chris Duhon was pretty good, too.

It's mostly the exception and not the rule, though. However, Frank isn't light on offense or athletic explosion. He's going to get an opportunity from day one in New Orleans. Plus, he might play with a little extra edge and show teams they made a mistake passing on him. I'm pulling for the kid.

 

[hart2chesson]

Just a note. The NBA R.O.Y. was a 2nd round draft choice in 2016. I thought he would have been a 1st rounder last year but he fell to the second round so Frank going in the second round or any one of those chosen could be make a major impact next year. There was another Duke player that fell to the second round a few years ago that had a very solid NBA career. Remember Carlos Boozer. OFC

Boozer seemed to rebound with even more ferocity in the NBA than he did as a Blue Devil!

OFC

 

[denniden]

Just a note. The NBA R.O.Y. was a 2nd round draft choice in 2016. I thought he would have been a 1st rounder last year but he fell to the second round so Frank going in the second round or any one of those chosen could be make a major impact next year. There was another Duke player that fell to the second round a few years ago that had a very solid NBA career. Remember Carlos Boozer. OFC

I. Thomas finished 5th in the MVP voting this year. He was the very last pick in the draft when he left college. Success can be had when you are drafted in the second round. However you will not be given as much rope as a first rounder will because of guaranteed money that goes to every first round pick.

 

[Quavarius]

 

[hart2chesson]

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Good for Frank! Wish him all the best...OFC

 

[Quavarius]

 

[denniden]

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Good group of talent in there for sure. I absolutely love Donovan Mitchell's chances at showing out over his career.

Of course I am partial to Tatum (as you are as well Q. We have some defending of him to a few bone heads over the last year) and I think Tatum ends up being a really good player in teh NBA for a long time.

 

[Quavarius]

Good group of talent in there for sure. I absolutely love Donovan Mitchell's chances at showing out over his career.

Of course I am partial to Tatum (as you are as well Q. We have some defending of him to a few bone heads over the last year) and I think Tatum ends up being a really good player in teh NBA for a long time.

We tried to tell them Tatum would be a star but they wouldn't listen.

*two pats on the back*

 

[jwill133]

We tried to tell them Tatum would be a star but they wouldn't listen.

*two pats on the back*

I'm glad to be on your guys side and not the people in January who wanted him sent back to St. Louis.

 

[Quavarius]

I'm glad to be on your guys side and not the people in January who wanted him sent back to St. Louis.

Here here!!!!

 

[timo0402]

I'm glad to be on your guys side and not the people in January who wanted him sent back to St. Louis.

Ditto.

 

[Mac9192]

We tried to tell them Tatum would be a star but they wouldn't listen.

*two pats on the back*

It definitely was some rough times for Tatum on the board earlier in the season. Not gonna lie, I'm one who thought a little bench time would help him. In my opinion, he was hurt when Coach went out. My thinking was that he needed a little humble pie, just like Parker got in his freshman season. If I remember correctly, Parker was benched at the end of the NC State game, which prompted a text from his mother to Scheyer. K also benched Elton Brand at the beginning of his sophomore season, due to his lethargic play. I stick to that line of thinking, that it worked for those 2 stars and I thought he should have been benched for the start of a game, or a portion of a game. But I'm glad he played for Duke and hope he has a really good career.

 

[topps coach]

Just a note. The NBA R.O.Y. was a 2nd round draft choice in 2016. I thought he would have been a 1st rounder last year but he fell to the second round so Frank going in the second round or any one of those chosen could be make a major impact next year. There was another Duke player that fell to the second round a few years ago that had a very solid NBA career. Remember Carlos Boozer. OFC

Chris Duhon was another second round pick who had a decent career

 

[dukesince91]

We tried to tell them Tatum would be a star but they wouldn't listen.

*two pats on the back*

I was one of the dummies back in January that took up for Tatum.
People just don't realize the adjustment that must be made from high school to college. You go from having the ball every possession in high school to trying to fit in in a different scheme. Coach K did say his game translated great to the NBA.

 

[timo0402]

He was also 19, coming off I believe his first injury of his career, where he missed the first handful of games, watched Luke and Frank really fit well together and then had to formulate his game in with them and was asked to maintain his ego which has made him such a great player.

 

[dukiejay]

It definitely was some rough times for Tatum on the board earlier in the season. Not gonna lie, I'm one who thought a little bench time would help him. In my opinion, he was hurt when Coach went out. My thinking was that he needed a little humble pie, just like Parker got in his freshman season. If I remember correctly, Parker was benched at the end of the NC State game, which prompted a text from his mother to Scheyer. K also benched Elton Brand at the beginning of his sophomore season, due to his lethargic play. I stick to that line of thinking, that it worked for those 2 stars and I thought he should have been benched for the start of a game, or a portion of a game. But I'm glad he played for Duke and hope he has a really good career.

The only thing I would say to this is that Parker and Brand's "benching", if you can even call it that, was due to perceived lack of effort. I never questioned Jayson's effort. His smarts at times? Sure, but not effort.

In all honesty, I think Jayson's piece of humble pie came in the Wake game on the road where he fouled out and watched Duke win.

 

[hart2chesson]

The only thing I would say to this is that Parker and Brand's "benching", if you can even call it that, was due to perceived lack of effort. I never questioned Jayson's effort. His smarts at times? Sure, but not effort.

In all honesty, I think Jayson's piece of humble pie came in the Wake game on the road where he fouled out and watched Duke win.

I imagine he very well may have eaten some "humble pie" after the State loss at home along w/others at K's home and deservedly so. We saw pretty much a different Jayson following that game.... OFC

 

[dukiejay]

I imagine he very well may have eaten some "humble pie" after the State loss at home along w/others at K's home and deservedly so. We saw pretty much a different Jayson following that game.... OFC

I don't think we saw a different Jayson as much as we saw a different team. To that point, it was really only Luke who had been the consistent guy for us. It was a team playing without their coach and a team who lost a captain because he did something stupid. And that's really just the beginning. It was a season full of dysfunction and one that we as Duke fans will never forget, but for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Mac9192]

I don't think we saw a different Jayson as much as we saw a different team. To that point, it was really only Luke who had been the consistent guy for us. It was a team playing without their coach and a team who lost a captain because he did something stupid. And that's really just the beginning. It was a season full of dysfunction and one that we as Duke fans will never forget, but for all the wrong reasons.

Exactly. A lot of teams that wish to cut down the nets may just have a bad game, or lose an important guy to injury. This Duke team though had a little of everything bad to deal with, all made worse when our biggest rival wins it all. Once the smoke settled and we could all calm down and look at it rationally, we were probably doomed in my opinion not having a healthy Giles and when Allen tripped the Elon player.

 

[timo0402]

Exactly. A lot of teams that wish to cut down the nets may just have a bad game, or lose an important guy to injury. This Duke team though had a little of everything bad to deal with, all made worse when our biggest rival wins it all. Once the smoke settled and we could all calm down and look at it rationally, we were probably doomed in my opinion not having a healthy Giles and when Allen tripped the Elon player.

I'd agree. To be quite honest it probably was that first open practice, you get there and both Giles and Allen aren't practicing. Two days later Giles is having a procedure to clean up the other knee. The snowball didn't stop rolling down the hill from there and it took 80% of our team with it.

 

[dukiejay]

Like I said, the 2016-17 season will be one remembered for all the wrong reasons, unfortunately. Lots of build-up and then quite a letdown. Just look at how it wore on us as fans....then figure in how it had to wear on the players and staff.

 

[denniden]

I'm glad to be on your guys side and not the people in January who wanted him sent back to St. Louis.

That drove me crazy. You didn't have to look to far to see the talent he had back then. learning the new level was the only thing he needed to learn. Which he clearly did by the time the last month came around. The kid was playing great at the end of the year and I think he was Duke's best player by the end of the year.

 

[hart2chesson]

Heck yeah, tremendous future....Wish I could join the band of chest- beaters and "I told you so's" so prevalent here recently saying basically "I said it all along" about Tatum even when he was struggling last year. However I won't write revisionist history.

Fact was he did have trouble adjusting (may have even cost us a game in Durham), and I became frustrated along with other passionate Duke fans. I think a lot of its the advanced age of social media, where we're slammed w/"the BEST EVER CLASS" or "this team is a final four shoo-in!!"

Its bound to continue, and its not the players faults, but the often UNREASONABLE expectations these young men deal with from DAY ONE. Heck I am not going to lie, honesty compels me to say (and I am sure I speak for others, even though they may deny) there will still probably be times in the future myself and others are perplexed over a kid's early inability to grasp the college game after such hype ad-nauseum.

Whatever it was, and I think it was one of the great teaching moments of K from his home after the State loss, Jayson came around AND THEN SOME!!!! Should have a long and hopefully storied NBA career.....Glad to admit, and not the least bit ashamed to confess I was wrong.....OFC

 

[Quavarius]

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Heck yeah, tremendous future....Wish I could join the band of chest- beaters and "I told you so's" so prevalent here recently saying basically "I said it all along" about Tatum even when he was struggling last year. However I won't write revisionist history.

Fact was he did have trouble adjusting (may have even cost us a game in Durham), and I became frustrated along with other passionate Duke fans. I think a lot of its the advanced age of social media, where we're slammed w/"the BEST EVER CLASS" or "this team is a final four shoo-in!!"

Its bound to continue, and its not the players faults, but the often UNREASONABLE expectations these young men deal with from DAY ONE. Heck I am not going to lie, honesty compels me to say (and I am sure I speak for others, even though they may deny) there will still probably be times in the future myself and others are perplexed over a kid's early inability to grasp the college game after such hype ad-nauseum.

Whatever it was, and I think it was one of the great teaching moments of K from his home after the State loss, Jayson came around AND THEN SOME!!!! Should have a long and hopefully storied NBA career.....Glad to admit, and not the least bit ashamed to confess I was wrong.....OFC

But it shouldn't though. We all should be used to our freshmen taking longer to adjust to the team philosophy in a tough, older conference. After Austin Rivers and Jabari Parker, I just decided to wait until later in the season for my critiques on our OADs. Now look, Ingram and Tatum were taken 2nd and 3rd overall in their drafts. These players are OADs trying to showcase their talents for the league AND fit into the team culture. Cal makes it look easy because his players are beating up on mid-majors for 2 1/2 months in the SEC, while our guys face older players, HOF coaches and teams not lacking for talent. As you can see, our freshmen usually come around at the end of the year, after being beaten down by ACC competition and HOF coaches (not including Brey, Bennett, Lerenegga (sp.?), etc. Our freshmen can't hide and I've come to terms with that and therefore I'm more patient with them.

 

[Mac9192]

But it shouldn't though. We all should be used to our freshmen taking longer to adjust to the team philosophy in a tough, older conference. After Austin Rivers and Jabari Parker, I just decided to wait until later in the season for my critiques on our OADs. Now look, Ingram and Tatum were taken 2nd and 3rd overall in their drafts. These players are OADs trying to showcase their talents for the league AND fit into the team culture. Cal makes it look easy because his players are beating up on mid-majors for 2 1/2 months in the SEC, while our guys face older players, HOF coaches and teams not lacking for talent. As you can see, our freshmen usually come around at the end of the year, after being beaten down by ACC competition and HOF coaches (not including Brey, Bennett, Lerenegga (sp.?), etc. Our freshmen can't hide and I've come to terms with that and therefore I'm more patient with them.

Great points by you and Hart. To add my two cents, the disastrous beginning to the season, then Grayson's meltdown and Coach K's back surgery added so much weight on the team and fan base. Yeah a lot of folks get carried away with criticism, heck I didn't like the way he played for a while, but when Duke was playing while Tatum was out hurt, he and the others were raved about like they were Lebron, Durant and Okafor, that as soon as they suit up "Watch Out!" No it's not fair, but like said earlier, this team according to media, and most fans as well, were the overwhelming favorite to win it all.
I believe had Duke been winning, Tatums struggles wouldn't have been noticed like they were. Winning cures a lot, and unfortunately losing makes a mole hill appear to be a mountain, and to pour salt in our wounds, the damn Holes won it all. From a fans view, we got punched in the nose then kicked square in the testicles

 

[Mac9192]

I would add one point about our freshmen and their early struggles, if the do have them. They play for Duke, and are at the most visible college basketball program, so how they play will be talked about. Doesn't matter if they play Michigan St or Myrtle Beach Tech, the game will most likely be televised. Duke sells, and they better put on their big boy britches when they decide to play here.