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Cautiously Optimistic

youngman42

Devils Illustrated Hall of Famer
Jan 27, 2003
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If last year taught us anything, it's the now cliche, expectations often lead to frustrations.

I am not so enthused that everyone has Duke as the consensus #1 team now. But, this is an insane amount of talent.

What I really hope for with these young guys is that they can come together as a team. If they can do that and if K can corral all the players, give some PT to the bench guys, I think they could be a great squad.

K has had some tough years in the past to navigate (with injuries or talent that became frustrated). This is going to be a true challenge for the coach. Knee replacement surgery (which is at least a 3 month recovery period and a painful grind). And, it is doubly hard with so much talent - especially on the front line.

K could actually throw out 5 of freshmen on the floor at some point, if he wanted to: Bagley, Carter, O'Connell, Trent Jr., and Duval - and they could probably hold their own against most teams.

5 deep at the 4-5 positions: Bagley, Carter, Bolden, Vrank, and DeLaurier. We have 3 sure fire starters any of whom could be all-ACC at the 1-2-3 spots: Duval, Trent, Jr., and Grayson. And, then there's a veteran in White (who has flashed some ability as a 3). Plus, three more freshmen in this range, the best of which is likely to be O'Connell; along with Goldwire and Tucker.

It will be a challenge and a half for K to keep all these guys positive. No easy task with so many so young players and several with NBA dreams. I do hope that we play a lot of these guys early. Likely that neither Goldwire nor Tucker see the floor at all from Jan. 1 on (except for 1-2 minute mop ups in blowouts). But, that still leaves 10 players who have significant contribution ability. I'd like to see all 10 get opportunities (not likely given the recent past; barring injury).

What does Bolden have to be thinking? I am hopeful that he matures and sees that this competition will only make him better. And, that he can make the two new big guys entering (Bagley and Carter) better. If he steps up, he certainly can garner some PT behind those two.

Personally, I am hoping that we don't recruit too many more for 2018 (we've got a nice one in Tre Jones) - maybe one more front line guy or a 2G. But, some of these 3-4 year talent level players should be able to step up in the next two years and I am hoping they get the opportunity (O'Connell; DeLaurier; White; Vrank; Tucker & Goldwire). Certainly won't happen this year too much but would love to see these guys develop and get PT in the next couple of years. There have been some solid Duke teams that didn't have mega talent except 1-2-3 players but still played really well (late 80's; '94; 2010).
 
Agree this team has the potential to be National Champions at years end but a lot has to happen before that would even be in the conversation. As said a ton of talent does not automatically lead to chemistry and team play. With a young team you have to work through these issues over the season. That is what I love about basketball over football. In football you can rarely stumble and win a Natty, but in Basketball the coach has the opportunity to mold his team over the season with taking some tough losses on the way but still have the chance to make it to the promised land. This team will lose games over the season but they could be very scary come Feb and March.
 
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I actually feel for VRank and Bolden. One of those two guys probably won't see the floor very much and the other probably won't see more than 15mins. Both have paid their dues and deserve PT. Same can be said for Jack White. It's the nature of the beast because we all know K isn't going more than 8 deep.
 
IMO Vrank is not seeing the floor this year and javin may or may not except in garbage time for both...just too much talent ahead of them
 
I actually feel for VRank and Bolden. One of those two guys probably won't see the floor very much and the other probably won't see more than 15mins. Both have paid their dues and deserve PT. Same can be said for Jack White. It's the nature of the beast because we all know K isn't going more than 8 deep.
I feel for them for sure. But they chose Duke, had to have known we would be bringing in elite guys every year. You're not gonna be granted PT just by going through a full year of practice.
The positive side seems to be that they all seem like great kids, and even if they aren't getting any PT, should be pushing our guys hard in practice.
 
I feel for them for sure. But they chose Duke, had to have known we would be bringing in elite guys every year. You're not gonna be granted PT just by going through a full year of practice.
The positive side seems to be that they all seem like great kids, and even if they aren't getting any PT, should be pushing our guys hard in practice.

Bolden will see plenty of time....Or we will be making a mistake. As fantastic as Bagley is, hes stiil a reclassified high school senior, and the SHEER PHYSICAL STRENGTH of guys two years older like Ques' and Jav cannot be discounted.

OFC
 
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Bolden will see plenty of time....Or we will be making a mistake. As fantastic as Bagley is, hes stiil a reclassified high school senior, and the SHEER PHYSICAL STRENGTH of guys two years older like Ques' and Jav cannot be discounted.

OFC
I was not factoring in Bolden on this, I think Bolden will either start or be the 1st guy off the bench. I was speaking in regards to White, Vrank, and Javin.

Guys mature at different ages, not saying Marvin is a fully developed physical specimen yet, but he has held his own playing against NBA guys. Basically, I don't think physical strength will be a strength or weakness to his game.
 
Javin will see more than "garbage time" IMO. If not we're making a big mistake IMO...Plus I wouldnt count on him being around a 3rd year...

OFC

Guess we will see...don't know who's minutes he will take

And where you think he is going after this year? Transfer or NBA? Lol
 
Coach K suggested after the South Carolina game that he'll play more people. I don't remember him making such a statement before. Even 8 minutes a game for Javin and Vrank and either Tucker or White would make a difference in their morale and the energy of the regulars. I'm very interested to see if it happens. Not holding my breath of course.
 
Guess we will see...don't know who's minutes he will take

And where you think he is going after this year? Transfer or NBA? Lol

I don't think he'll be NBA ready after this season, but I do think he'll be a regular contributor. The beauty of having 4-5 post players available is that guys don't necessarily have to play out of position. Bolden and AV can play center and Bagley and Carter and Jav can play inside out, which is what the recruited for. Now of course there will be times where Bagley and Carter are on the floor at the same time, but for stretches, guys can hold their natural spots.

Perimeter D will always be my biggest concern unless K has adapted the way he coaches it, which so far hasn't been the case. Hopefully it clicks for this team the way it did for the 2015 natty squad after January.
 
Guess we will see...don't know who's minutes he will take

And where you think he is going after this year? Transfer or NBA? Lol

I could see him transferring to somewhere he could get more mins to get a better chance at furthering his hoops career...OFC
 
Coach K suggested after the South Carolina game that he'll play more people. I don't remember him making such a statement before. Even 8 minutes a game for Javin and Vrank and either Tucker or White would make a difference in their morale and the energy of the regulars. I'm very interested to see if it happens. Not holding my breath of course.

Hear ya Lift!

OFC
 
Vrank- should stay his 4 years and go play pro over seas. Transferring to play I get but what's his ceiling value to the NBA

Javin- stays to enjoy this year and contributing but next year he's a potential starter.

Jack, Jordan T, Jordan G and Alex will all have a definite role on next year's team
 
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I was not factoring in Bolden on this, I think Bolden will either start or be the 1st guy off the bench. I was speaking in regards to White, Vrank, and Javin.

Guys mature at different ages, not saying Marvin is a fully developed physical specimen yet, but he has held his own playing against NBA guys. Basically, I don't think physical strength will be a strength or weakness to his game.

I am factoring Javin too and that kid WILL get meaningful PT IMO. Think he's not gonna bump Bags around a little in practice? Think again- that kid is a diamond in the rough- be ashame to lose him to transfer route....

OFC
 
If the guys are good enough, they'll play. Javin has shown a vast improvement in the interior, I think that will correlate to extra minutes. The staff does want him to be able to knock down open threes, but that won't be a known commodity until he can do it in game situations. Seemingly our team looks like this from top to bottom (skill-wise):

Bagley - F/G
Grayson - G
Duval - G
Carter - F
Trent - F
Bolden - F/C
Javin - F/G?
Tucker - G
Vrankovic - F
White - F/G
O' Connell - G
Goldwire - G
Robinson - F
Besser - F

The forward/guard designation is only to illustrate where guys could potentially see spots in the floor to operate from.

Jav's playing time will be determined by how well he, or Bagley can produce from the perimeter, because the only three perimeter spots that are locked up are with Grayson, Tre, and Gary. That's 3 guys for 3 spots, so Jav, Tucker and White really have a good opportunity to try to gain some time on floor by either playing really good defense, or becoming reliable shot makers.
 
Vrank- should stay his 4 years and go play pro over seas. Transferring to play I get but what's his ceiling value to the NBA

Javin- stays to enjoy this year and contributing but next year he's a potential starter.

Jack, Jordan T, Jordan G and Alex will all have a definite role on next year's team

And the guys you mentioned are also presumably the only guys returning next year as well. Duke expects to have a big recruiting class coming in.

Grayson, Bagley, Carter, Trent, Duval and maybe Bolden all are anticipated to be candidates for the draft.
 
If the guys are good enough, they'll play. Javin has shown a vast improvement in the interior, I think that will correlate to extra minutes. The staff does want him to be able to knock down open threes, but that won't be a known commodity until he can do it in game situations. Seemingly our team looks like this from top to bottom (skill-wise):

Bagley - F/G
Grayson - G
Duval - G
Carter - F
Trent - F
Bolden - F/C
Javin - F/G?
Tucker - G
Vrankovic - F
White - F/G
O' Connell - G
Goldwire - G
Robinson - F
Besser - F

The forward/guard designation is only to illustrate where guys could potentially see spots in the floor to operate from.

Jav's playing time will be determined by how well he, or Bagley can produce from the perimeter, because the only three perimeter spots that are locked up are with Grayson, Tre, and Gary. That's 3 guys for 3 spots, so Jav, Tucker and White really have a good opportunity to try to gain some time on floor by either playing really good defense, or becoming reliable shot makers.

I think you are right that "reliable shot maker" will be a significant factor for the perimeter bench; and for the team's success. Right now, the one sure 3 point shooter we have is Grayson. Beyond him, we just don't know who will step up with poise. Tucker or O'Connell could get minutes because of that - but it's always a tough transition. Few guys come in and bomb away from 3 with great success right away even if they did it in high school.

Even though White doesn't perhaps have the talent of Tucker or O'Connell I think his experience, strength, and court savvy will help him get more minutes (esp. early on). The longer a player is here generally the more poise they display and that seems to be a factor for K's dolling out of minutes.
 
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Javin will see more than "garbage time" IMO. If not we're making a big mistake IMO...Plus I wouldnt count on him being around a 3rd year...

OFC
Yeah I think it's gonna be hard to keep Delaurier out of the lineup. He strikes me as wanting to rip someone's head off. That kind of kid needs court time. Definitely think it's a mistake if he only plays garbage time. He could be really special for Duke.
 
I'm cautiously optimistic...but last year was due more to injuries, coach being out, and no PG..

Hopefully all those problems will be remedied this season..

I want to see a squad on floor that will defend...unless we play really good defense it doesn't matter what our talent level is on the floor...we have to be able to stop people..and its been a real challenge for a long long time...the amount of pts some other programs have put on Duke in the tournament in the second half of some of these games is frightening....
 
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I'm cautiously optimistic...but last year was due more to injuries, coach being out, and no PG..

Hopefully all those problems will be remedied this season..

I want to see a squad on floor that will defend...unless we play really good defense it doesn't matter what our talent level is on the floor...we have to be able to stop people..and its been a real challenge for a long long time...the amount of pts some other programs have put on Duke in the tournament in the second half of some of these games is frightening....
Have to agree on every front to a T.
 
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I imagine if this team performs the way they should be able to, there will be a lot of garbage time. Those guys should come in with a chip on their shoulder and show what they can do. Maybe move up in the rotation. I hope for a lot of playing time for a lot of people. There is a lot Freshmen can learn by watching and being coached from the sideline when they are not in.
 
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I imagine if this team performs the way they should be able to, there will be a lot of garbage time. Those guys should come in with a chip on their shoulder and show what they can do. Maybe move up in the rotation. I hope for a lot of playing time for a lot of people. There is a lot Freshmen can learn by watching and being coached from the sideline when they are not in.

I see the Vranks, Jack Whites and Delaurier types doing just that! OFC
 
If last year taught us anything, it's the now cliche, expectations often lead to frustrations.

I am not so enthused that everyone has Duke as the consensus #1 team now. But, this is an insane amount of talent.

What I really hope for with these young guys is that they can come together as a team. If they can do that and if K can corral all the players, give some PT to the bench guys, I think they could be a great squad.

K has had some tough years in the past to navigate (with injuries or talent that became frustrated). This is going to be a true challenge for the coach. Knee replacement surgery (which is at least a 3 month recovery period and a painful grind). And, it is doubly hard with so much talent - especially on the front line.

K could actually throw out 5 of freshmen on the floor at some point, if he wanted to: Bagley, Carter, O'Connell, Trent Jr., and Duval - and they could probably hold their own against most teams.

5 deep at the 4-5 positions: Bagley, Carter, Bolden, Vrank, and DeLaurier. We have 3 sure fire starters any of whom could be all-ACC at the 1-2-3 spots: Duval, Trent, Jr., and Grayson. And, then there's a veteran in White (who has flashed some ability as a 3). Plus, three more freshmen in this range, the best of which is likely to be O'Connell; along with Goldwire and Tucker.

It will be a challenge and a half for K to keep all these guys positive. No easy task with so many so young players and several with NBA dreams. I do hope that we play a lot of these guys early. Likely that neither Goldwire nor Tucker see the floor at all from Jan. 1 on (except for 1-2 minute mop ups in blowouts). But, that still leaves 10 players who have significant contribution ability. I'd like to see all 10 get opportunities (not likely given the recent past; barring injury).

What does Bolden have to be thinking? I am hopeful that he matures and sees that this competition will only make him better. And, that he can make the two new big guys entering (Bagley and Carter) better. If he steps up, he certainly can garner some PT behind those two.

Personally, I am hoping that we don't recruit too many more for 2018 (we've got a nice one in Tre Jones) - maybe one more front line guy or a 2G. But, some of these 3-4 year talent level players should be able to step up in the next two years and I am hoping they get the opportunity (O'Connell; DeLaurier; White; Vrank; Tucker & Goldwire). Certainly won't happen this year too much but would love to see these guys develop and get PT in the next couple of years. There have been some solid Duke teams that didn't have mega talent except 1-2-3 players but still played really well (late 80's; '94; 2010).

I think this is an excellent post! I will add -- the biggest challenges for K is to turn these young guys that were THE guy on their high school team to become a part of a new team. A team that is NOT their ultimate goal, BUT the LAST STEP to getting to the NBA. How do you get these guys to shelve their egos? Tough question. The next challenge is just keeping them healthy. These kids are younger and not as physically developed -- I know that sounds crazy, but they are 17 and 18, not 20 - 21. Keeping them healthy is key.

Cautiously optimistic is a little low in my expectations. I would say that K has all the right parts if he can bring them together and we have a little luck.
 
I'm cautiously optimistic...but last year was due more to injuries, coach being out, and no PG..

Hopefully all those problems will be remedied this season..

I want to see a squad on floor that will defend...unless we play really good defense it doesn't matter what our talent level is on the floor...we have to be able to stop people..and its been a real challenge for a long long time...the amount of pts some other programs have put on Duke in the tournament in the second half of some of these games is frightening....
THIS!! We need to get back to the days when a player would slap the floor and you could just see everyone go into lock down mode. If the talent on this team will play with the fire of Wojo, good night Irene.
 
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I think this is an excellent post! I will add -- the biggest challenges for K is to turn these young guys that were THE guy on their high school team to become a part of a new team. A team that is NOT their ultimate goal, BUT the LAST STEP to getting to the NBA. How do you get these guys to shelve their egos? Tough question. The next challenge is just keeping them healthy. These kids are younger and not as physically developed -- I know that sounds crazy, but they are 17 and 18, not 20 - 21. Keeping them healthy is key.

Cautiously optimistic is a little low in my expectations. I would say that K has all the right parts if he can bring them together and we have a little luck.

Agree and LT hit rite on it!!!! Gotta get guys to buy in to "NO I IN TEAM!" OFC
 
heheh, I know all those injuries have stained many of our posters expectations, but hey, have any of you really taken a rock solid look at who we have here? This team has some serious "MEN" on it. We have a REAL PG. One that wants to win worse than anybody else on the court and can distribute the ball in heavy traffic like a damn surgeon. He's going to be flipping the ball up for the likes of Wendell Carter? Marques Bolden? Marvin Bagley? Are you kidding me? And if the D fades off guess whats going on next? Yea, Trevon is going to dunk it himself, like a boss. We're gonna require a ton of attention in the paint, that brings in this fella named Allen who has been known to shoot a 3 every now and then. Not to mention Gary. Yes, injuries could cripple us once again, but not so likely. A few, sure. As many as last season? Just don't see that happening. I think we are at a new point with this team. They are going to intimidate. They will crush some teams badly. And as dukehokie and I have mentioned before, this group, ain't soft. They are gonna play a little angry at times, it's gonna be fun to watch. Spare me the "Bagley hasn't played a single college game yet" comments. Did you see this guy playing in the Drew? Man Child. He's gonna posterize so many ACC foes this season there will be a montage of it at seasons end. Don't ruin the anticipation of this season worrying about injuries and unlikely possibilities. Damn, we have a fire breathing Hot-Rod in the garage. Our head mechanic is fine tuning her right now, we comin' out for pink slips soon ! GO DUKE !
 
heheh, I know all those injuries have stained many of our posters expectations, but hey, have any of you really taken a rock solid look at who we have here? This team has some serious "MEN" on it. We have a REAL PG. One that wants to win worse than anybody else on the court and can distribute the ball in heavy traffic like a damn surgeon. He's going to be flipping the ball up for the likes of Wendell Carter? Marques Bolden? Marvin Bagley? Are you kidding me? And if the D fades off guess whats going on next? Yea, Trevon is going to dunk it himself, like a boss. We're gonna require a ton of attention in the paint, that brings in this fella named Allen who has been known to shoot a 3 every now and then. Not to mention Gary. Yes, injuries could cripple us once again, but not so likely. A few, sure. As many as last season? Just don't see that happening. I think we are at a new point with this team. They are going to intimidate. They will crush some teams badly. And as dukehokie and I have mentioned before, this group, ain't soft. They are gonna play a little angry at times, it's gonna be fun to watch. Spare me the "Bagley hasn't played a single college game yet" comments. Did you see this guy playing in the Drew? Man Child. He's gonna posterize so many ACC foes this season there will be a montage of it at seasons end. Don't ruin the anticipation of this season worrying about injuries and unlikely possibilities. Damn, we have a fire breathing Hot-Rod in the garage. Our head mechanic is fine tuning her right now, we comin' out for pink slips soon ! GO DUKE !
I don't even know what your last few sentences mean and I'm sold, I'll take 2.
 
heheh, I know all those injuries have stained many of our posters expectations, but hey, have any of you really taken a rock solid look at who we have here? This team has some serious "MEN" on it. We have a REAL PG. One that wants to win worse than anybody else on the court and can distribute the ball in heavy traffic like a damn surgeon. He's going to be flipping the ball up for the likes of Wendell Carter? Marques Bolden? Marvin Bagley? Are you kidding me? And if the D fades off guess whats going on next? Yea, Trevon is going to dunk it himself, like a boss. We're gonna require a ton of attention in the paint, that brings in this fella named Allen who has been known to shoot a 3 every now and then. Not to mention Gary. Yes, injuries could cripple us once again, but not so likely. A few, sure. As many as last season? Just don't see that happening. I think we are at a new point with this team. They are going to intimidate. They will crush some teams badly. And as dukehokie and I have mentioned before, this group, ain't soft. They are gonna play a little angry at times, it's gonna be fun to watch. Spare me the "Bagley hasn't played a single college game yet" comments. Did you see this guy playing in the Drew? Man Child. He's gonna posterize so many ACC foes this season there will be a montage of it at seasons end. Don't ruin the anticipation of this season worrying about injuries and unlikely possibilities. Damn, we have a fire breathing Hot-Rod in the garage. Our head mechanic is fine tuning her right now, we comin' out for pink slips soon ! GO DUKE !
You know Show, if you'd let your feelings be known, it would help a lot. Quit holding back
 
PG - 32 Duval, 5 Grayson, 3 other
SG - 29 Grayson, 8 Trent, 3 other
G/F - 20 Trent, 10 Tucker, 6 Bagley, 4 other
F - 26 Bagley, 10 Carter, 4 DeLaurier
F - 20 Carter, 15 Bolden, 5 Big V

This is how I see time ending up in April. I'd prefer to use our starters sparingly in the second half of games against lesser teams, regardless of score. If the starters aren't taking care of business against Elon, maybe the reserves deserve to be in there anyway, right? I'm very excited to see how the defense gels. If we're forcing turnovers and getting transition dunks and open threes, we'll be unstoppable.
 
PG - 32 Duval, 5 Grayson, 3 other
SG - 29 Grayson, 8 Trent, 3 other
G/F - 20 Trent, 10 Tucker, 6 Bagley, 4 other
F - 26 Bagley, 10 Carter, 4 DeLaurier
F - 20 Carter, 15 Bolden, 5 Big V

This is how I see time ending up in April. I'd prefer to use our starters sparingly in the second half of games against lesser teams, regardless of score. If the starters aren't taking care of business against Elon, maybe the reserves deserve to be in there anyway, right? I'm very excited to see how the defense gels. If we're forcing turnovers and getting transition dunks and open threes, we'll be unstoppable.

Pretty good deduction, but see Bolden and Javin getting a bit more... OFC
 
Keeping Carter and Bagley under 30 mpg prior to conference season should be a goal for K. That means two things: his guys have the best chance to stay healthy and DeLaurier, Bolden and AV all are playing well enough to earn decent minutes.
 
Keeping Carter and Bagley under 30 mpg prior to conference season should be a goal for K. That means two things: his guys have the best chance to stay healthy and DeLaurier, Bolden and AV all are playing well enough to earn decent minutes.

Like this philosophy!
 
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